Farquaad fiddled while OneSky burned

doh

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Your post count is up to 11. This has been explained to you by multiple people. Your response is to spew the same management line over and over. Folks, don't fall for this. Management is only attempting to set a legal precedent to never have to bargain again. They could have had these very terms, IF they would have negotiated a Letter of Agreement. They wanted to set the legal precedent of bypassing negotiations. They were NEVER intending to benefit anyone but themselves.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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The company said one thing, but when it was put into writing and it was time for the company to sign what they agreed to , they refused. I think OgletreeDeakons ( the new law firm?) is the only one benefitting from this infighting.
 

ProFracPilot

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Just so I'm clear, the union AGREED in their counter proposal / LOA to give up the recall rights for those who take the VSP?
 

ghostrider64

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Go ahead and decertify, then stand by for the sale of the remaining assets. You'll soon discover how important being unionized was....

Look up the definition of the word "Staple" as it pertains to merging work forces.
 

GlorifiedCabbie

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Just so I'm clear, the union AGREED in their counter proposal / LOA to give up the recall rights for those who take the VSP?
Please don't put words in my mouth. What the company released is not what they verbally agreed to. When it came time to put it in writing, the company lawyer intervened and blocked further discussion. Next, the company released the false narrative that it was the union who would not negotiate. The company's offer is unpalatable to the pilot group as a whole. Why did the company try to entice the union to sign a bad deal with a take it or leave it proposal? If the union signed, the company claimed it didn't need to immediately furlough those pilots. So why did the company have to furlough? Lack of vision?
 

Mach94

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I won't put words in your mouth, but I will point out that you are twisting your words.

The VSP that was given to the Options pilots is the exact same VSP that was given to the Flexjet pilots with 6, 9, or 12 months' severance available depending on your circumstances.

And it was the union, not the company, that filed an injunction to try to stop the pilots from getting that compensation. And the reason was clear, both in the union's letter to the pilots and in the court document itself. Because the company did not negotiate that vsp with the union. And here we are.

And Ghostrider is absolutely right. And when the assets are sold maybe those in union leadership may realize how bad they F'd up by killing what solidarity they had by destroying itself over a VSP that was harming no one and actually was helping fellow pilots out, all to try to force the company to negotiate, which it was already doing with another lawsuit. They got greedy, they lost their patience, they gambled and lost. And we all will suffer and lose the union we all worked so hard to have. Stupid, stupid, fatal mistake.
 

Praetorian

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You can keep repeating your talking points over and over but knowone is falling for it.
 

doh

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Because it is a false talking point.
 

flexpilot

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This comes to mind.

"We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately," Ben Franklin

After reading this thread, it appears to me that Mach94 is either a management tool or someone so blinded by their own position, they fail to see the big picture.

Ken Ricci, is a man known for his lying. Any agreement with him needs to be in writing and have witnesses. Even then you need to be prepared to go to court to enforce the agreement. The only way a group of pilots can do that is with a union.

Good luck.
 

Mach94

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Just like when the vote for representation with Flexjet happened and the union thought it would be a landslide and was so far off and only won by about the same amount of votes as the guys who are now furloughed, the union cronies attack anyone with a counter view, and are so delusional it will be too late when they realize yet again they were wrong. Terribly wrong. And the fact that anyone would dare speak out against the mistakes our union's leadership has made "must be a management plan". It really is laughable. And rather than recognize that someone who is a MiGs could feel this way, it's just easier to try to point someone out as a management tool with an agenda for management. As if the possibility of MiGs being pissed at union leadership's actions and decisions is not possible. This has always been an inherent problem with the IBT 1108, and why solidarity even at its peak has at best been weak. How can you trust leadership who is nothing but the other side of the same coin as Ricci? "Do it our way or the high way." Even when they are making a fatal mistake.

It's pathetic, and the 1108 - or more accurately, "Onesky 1108" (as not to rope TMC into this) is mortally wounded and like the crew of Titanic, the crew is in denial to that ever being a possibility. Idiots.
 
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shanes123

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I believe Mach is looking at a furlough that he wouldn't have been looking at if the VSP was passed. The issue that I have and lots of pilots have is that the union should have signed off on the VSP it has done nothing but make the union look bad (KR sole intention) and it has caused the union to lose even more supporters. What they need to do is step back and take a look at is that they barely had 50% of the vote. There is little solidarity among Flops pilots and non with the Flex side. Why they feel they need to negotiate a better deal for a group of OLD guys that are choosing to leave and never come back is mind boggling to me. Our negotiations should be concentrated on a JCBA.

The other issue we are facing is that it appears KR has ran this place into the ground again it seems our investors are pulling out like crazy and they can't sell a share of anything. Reports from the office are they are being told to watch every penny spent. Everytime a 10.00 taxi is used it has to be justified. Only good news is all this is happening at a time when everyone else is growing and hiring and jobs are plentiful. I for one am sending out resumes in the next few days. This place will be lucky to be half the size it is in a year. If not completely out of business.
 

Mach94

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Shanes123 is right. And, as I have been saying the last couple days, the union just put out that the company is declaring surplus on the Citation X and Nextant fleets. So yeah, I'm about to get that pink slip, with no VSP. But wow, we showed them! We filed an injunction to make that nasty management team negotiate with us. Remember what I said about every day that brings more bad news only makes the solidarity issue worse? Well, there you go. We just lost more solidarity. In a detrimental time of crisis where our very company is halving itself, the union had the gall to interfere with the company giving everyone affected a VSP. See the FATAL mistake yet?

Thanks for costing me close to $100,000. And, as shanes123 had said, had the VSP been originally allowed, no one may have had to get furloughed. Still think you have solidarity? Still think, if Flight Options even exists in a year, that the 1108 won't be decertified? If you say yes to either question, you really have no idea what is really going on. That's ok though, because now even more of us will be able to spell that out for you. UNEMPLOYED. WITH NO VSP WE COULD HAVE HAD THANKS TO THE UNION.

I'm glad I have my resume's out. Maybe I can get a jump on the next round of lay-offs to get another job.
 
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shanes123

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Mach actually be thankful. This place is sinking faster then anyone realizes. You are gonna get another job and get on someone's seniority list ( where seniority means something and this place will be nothing but a bad memory) and you will be ahead of everyone else here that chose to stick around.
 

Mach94

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Sorry, I can't be thankful that the union, for no reason except selfish pride, cost every one of us either out of a job or about to be this week, up to $100,000. Money that wasn't going to harm the union in any way. In anger and to try to instill some pride, the union, in its arrogance, just affected my family big-time. Yes, others are hiring. But more than likely, unless you can get onto Netjets, which although has one of the most solid unions in aviation, you are looking at a 10-year upgrade and dangling on the bottom of their list ripe for their next furlough, which we all know will someday happen. Unless you get on with Netjets, it will be a major pay cut. And in doing that selfish act, the union destroyed itself in the process. LIVID PISSED!
 

slowtation capt

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The vsp wasn't allowed and the company furloughed now the company gave the vsp anyways but they are not recalling the furloughs that they said didn't need to happen if the vsp went through
 

shanes123

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That is true Slow. Not defending company. Never have. But this was a wrong move on the unions part. It has done more damage then the Bogus Citation Air Deal. Which I stood behind the union on that 100% But this VSP was a major F up.
 

Mach94

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I agree. The citation air deal was completely different. And was handled appropriately, and backed by the pilots. That was different leadership, however, than this union leadership that loves to use exclamation points and instill an incredible amount of emotion and poor grammar in every letter to the company.

And just so we're clear, I'm not defending the company either. Ricci is a snake. He has violated the RLA so many times it's ridiculous. He exploits the weakness of the RLA. Up until this latest furlough the union had my support. But it does not take a rocket scientist to see that the union put the nail in its own coffin by going after the pilots' VSP. And now, here we are, looking at probably half our pilots about to be on the street and the union did two unforgivable things in one blow - took from our pockets and killed what little solidarity we had. It's epic. We can only hope that other unions see this and don't ever repeat that mistake. You have to pick your battles and this particular one, attempting to take the VSP from the pilots, was one the union should have left alone. They would have had a union left. Now they just have a bloody battleground, they committed fratricide and unnecessarily took from the pilots up to a year's worth of pay, and have lost the war. Unbelievable.
 
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Praetorian

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Shanes123 is right. And, as I have been saying the last couple days, the union just put out that the company is declaring surplus on the Citation X and Nextant fleets. So yeah, I'm about to get that pink slip, with no VSP. But wow, we showed them! We filed an injunction to make that nasty management team negotiate with us. Remember what I said about every day that brings more bad news only makes the solidarity issue worse? Well, there you go. We just lost more solidarity. In a detrimental time of crisis where our very company is halving itself, the union had the gall to interfere with the company giving everyone affected a VSP. See the FATAL mistake yet?

Thanks for costing me close to $100,000. And, as shanes123 had said, had the VSP been originally allowed, no one may have had to get furloughed. Still think you have solidarity? Still think, if Flight Options even exists in a year, that the 1108 won't be decertified? If you say yes to either question, you really have no idea what is really going on. That's ok though, because now even more of us will be able to spell that out for you. UNEMPLOYED. WITH NO VSP WE COULD HAVE HAD THANKS TO THE UNION.

I'm glad I have my resume's out. Maybe I can get a jump on the next round of lay-offs to get another job.
So did you put in for the VSP? If you take Kenn at his word, he would buy you out if you put in for it. I think the deadline was yesterday, did you sign up to take the money, leave and forgo your recall rights?

The union filed the TRO to preserve our barganing rights, but that in no way prevented you from trusting Kenn and signing up for the VSP.
 

flexible

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Mach is not options pilot. I know because I recently flew with a flex jet windbag (hint) who said almost all this word for word. I used to be the most anti union pilot ever. The red label pay changed my mind. He is wrong. Company played this wrong and many upening there eyes. Now they try to redirect the trend with a few helpful postings. I know because when I was anti union I was encouraged to post. No one ever told me what to say but certainly told it would be noticed.

Pilots see management being the bad guy here. Negotiations start with both parties bringing highest unrealistic dreams to table and pair down. How can you say what union demanded when never got chance to negotatiate? My p2p said all union cared about was knowing who applied and order they were selected by seniority. Company never even responded. So how can you say what loa or whatever was what would have been?

Pilots starting to see it will always be Kenns way or no way. No one likes that as an answer mach. You are wrong.
 

Mach94

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Well Flexible I have no doubt someone at Flex said everything I said word for word. I know and have talked with quite a few of the pilots on furlough and they feel the exact same way I do. However, I can assure you, I've never flown for Flex. In fact, if I was a flexjet pilot, I'd be on here on a soap box and tooting a completely different tune. That being, hope the company can delay SLI as long as possible because Options is probably going to close its doors sooner than later, my guess is 18 months max, and why on earth would we want to inflate our seniority list with a bunch of pilots from a company that does not even exist anymore? And, on top of that, the whole "career expectations" thing would then of course be very good grounds for another law suit that would get rid of the DOH integration the union has done. So yeah. Not a flex pilot.

Look, I do not deny that Flexjet needs a union. In fact, Ricci's actions prove that you need one. My whole point is i'm pissed that the union did the exact worse thing they could do, to destroy the solidarity we had. And took from the pilots now without a job, and the probably 100 or so more that are now going to follow post haste, which will positively include yours truly. And because of the reasons I stated in the above paragraph, you can bet that a decert vote will happen. Ricci out-played our impulsive, emotional union leadership and gave the union the perfect bait they couldn't pass up. It's infuriating. And as a MiGs we are helpless but to sit and now watch the ship go down holding and shaking our heads.
 
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