UAL Concession Details

[46Driver]

STOPPPPPPPPPPP. Do not hijack this thread into another Delta / Comair feud - take it somewhere else.

 

[freightdogfred]

We can follow Mr. Woerth's plan paraphrased from one of his speeches...get ALPA on the SWA property...hold SWA management hostage to accept a contract comparable to current rates...then SWA will have to raise thier ticket prices to pay their pilots, and all will be right again in airline wonderland.

That's about the kind of thing I'd expect out of him, after witnessing first-hand his "expert" handling of the debacle with the Emery pilot group. I guess the next installment of "Flying the line" will be "Alpa goes under"- with D.Woerth at the helm.

 

[goldentrout]

Mach none/Beckett

Sounds llike the same crap I heard after 9/11 from all you guys...that continual arrogance that no one who hasn't been around as long as you can't possibly understand the airline industry.

You are the guys who are have been running the unions for the last 20 years...and look where you are today!

How can you continue to follow the ALPA strategy after seeing US Air and UAL go down the tubes...with pay cuts in the 30% range and a almost complete gutting of your work rules?

You talk about the "70 years of the industry." Any student of the industry knows that up until deregulation, the airlines didn't have to have a profitable business model because they were subsidized by the federal government.

Look at SWA...created after deregulation...making money every year since it's inception...one list...no regional feeders...relatively good moral...profit sharing...management figures out the routes to fly, and the pilots fly the planes.

That 70 years of history the way airlines are run has brought it to it's knees.

Show me some FACTS that prove me wrong, instead of your emotional based sarcasm.

1. Is it not true that Comair/ASA has hired around 800 or so pilots since 9/11, and will hire another 250-300 this year? If it was one list with DAL by DOH, would there be anyone on furlough by the end of this year? Most probably no! Yes, they'd be flying an RJ, but they'd have all their benefits, and still a liveable salary.

2. Is it not true that US Air/UAL are in bankruptcy, and that AMR is probably a month or so away?

3. Is it not true that NWA is going to lay off about 5000 more employees, some pilots, in the next few months.

4. Is it not true that Comair is hiring and buying more, and bigger planes all the time?

5. Is it not true the UAL routes are being flown by Skywest and ACA RJ pilots...jobs and routes that could be flown by UAL pilots if the UAL union had long ago brought RJs onto their property.? Is it not ture that Comar/ASA/Chataqua/American Eagle are flying DAL passengers on routes and in planes that could be flown by DAL pilots if they had one list with a "brand" scope clause?

6. Is it not true the Comair is flying more and more of the old DAL mainline routes with RJs

7. Is it not true that Comair/ACA/ASA by themselves make money, while DAL loses millions of dollars every day?

8. Is it not true that UAL and DAL have/will start low cost carriers with new employee contracts to compete with Jet Blue/SWA?

9. Is it not true that Embraer/Bombardier can hardly crank out RJs fast enough to meet the demand, while Boeing can barely find enough orders to keep their people employed.

10. Is it not true that the number and amount of RJ flying in the US has increased every year over the last decade, and that projections are for RJ flying to have much more growth than large aircraft flying over the next decade.

11. Is it not true that the one major airline, SWA, that does not have ALPA on the property, is the most successful airline of all time?

12. Is it not true that the one airline, SWA, that does not have ALPA on the property, has never furloughed a pilot, and has made money every year of it's 24 year history?

13. Is it not true that UAL/DAL/NWA/AMR continue to furlough well after 9/11, while the larger regionals and SWA/Jet Blue continue to grow and hire?

You guys just don't get it...I don't want your job. I wouldn't mind being on one list with you guys, and I'm willing to bid in that list with my date of hire and let the chips fall where thay may. I'm trying to give you guys a way to keep your jobs and keep your companies viable so you have a job with a decent contract...instead of having a contract imposed upon you by circumstances or a bankruptcy judge.

Whether we're selling widgets or airline tickets, the basic laws of economics still apply.

1. A business cannot not exist...cannot attract capital...cannot get credit...cannot PAY ITS EMPLOYEES...if it's revenue does not meet its expenditures.

2. Customers will gravitate to the lowest priced widget/ticket in the market that fits their needs.

3. A company has to have overhead expenditures in line with its competitors if it is going to compete with its rivals. Otherwise, it will have to charge too much for its widgets/tickets, and will not be competitive (i.e. profitable).

As for one list...we will never go for a staple (read flow back).

Your job is no more important than my job, nor is mine more important than yours.

The only fair way to do this is by one list where we all compete with an objective standard...date of hire.

Even if I was on a mainline list, it's not likle I'd be in the right seat of any bigger iron anytime in the forseeable future...but many guys on furlough would be getting recall letters to fly RJs...and they'd have decent seniority too, since about 1/4 of the Comair list has been hired since 9/11.

In all honesty, with my two years in the industry, as a whole, I have never seen such a group of blessed people (six figure salaries, 15 days off a month, free airline travel, decent health and retirement benefits, fun job) who are, very often, the biggest whiners and greediest profession I've ever been around.

Not too mention some of the most arrogant, spoiled individuals I've ever come encountered, both in and out of the military...calling in sick because you don't feel like going to work...slowing down the plane because you want to make another ten bucks on top of your $200/hour salaries, even when you're running late...complaining about the "crap trip" scheduling gave you, even though it's your job to fly and make money for the company...drinking well inside the 12 hour rule most of our companies have set and putting the rest of the crew in the horrible position of safety versus loyalty...arguing with the schedulers and the chief pilots over even the smallest, minor inconvenience in your schedule...unwilling to give up even a dime of your six figure salary so the other members of your "brotherhood" can pay their mortgages and car payments (eventhough the guys at Frontier and AirTran did it in a heart beart, by an overwhelming majority vote).

Pride goeth before the fall...if you don't think that's exactly what's happening today, then you ought to have the call sign "ostrich."

 

[VFR on Top]

Bravo, Goldentrout!

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

DOH?

I was about to post a response, then I realized that you must have been only joking.

You almost got me!

Good one.

 

[becket]

Quote from Goldentrout:


"In all honesty, with my two years in the industry, as a whole, I have never seen such a group of blessed people (six figure salaries, 15 days off a month, free airline travel, decent health and retirement benefits, fun job) who are, very often, the biggest whiners and greediest profession I've ever been around"


Stephen Wolf....Is that you?!!

If you believe the majority of airline pilots make six figures you need to stop getting all of your industry info. from USA Today. Also, maybe just having a "fun job" isn't enough for the rest of us. Some of us don't get weepy eyed over the prospect of "getting" to fly for a living. That was when I was 17. The financial realities of two failed carriers, one walk on the picket line, and one more major furlough, only to be lucky enough to start again at the bottom of another major has cleared my thinking to aviation. Show me the money, period. I don't want to hear promises of how great things might be someday, pay me today.

Why don't you ask all those "Greedy whining" US Airways pilots, many of whom have over 30 years of service feel about having their retirment plan terminated by a bankrupcy court. Ask them if they think their free travel and fun job are enough to sustain them. You're a punk. Normally I'd give you the benefit of the doubt considering your age. However, if you're out of the military, you should be old enough to know better. I guess you're just not all that bright.

P.S. Don't even try to blame the US Airways pilots for their situation. Pilot pay has nearly nothing to do with the sucess or failure of an airline. It is squarely on the shoulders of managment. If pilots worked for free, most of the carriers in trouble today would still be in the same boat. Again, don't listen to USA Today. They're as ignorant on the subject matter as you appear to be.

 

[earlthesquirrel]

"Pilot pay has nearly nothing to do with the sucess or failure of an airline."

I guess that is why United got a 30% pay cut from their pilot union.



"Why don't you ask all those "Greedy whining" US Airways pilots, many of whom have over 30 years of service feel about having their retirment plan terminated by a bankrupcy court."

If they would set up their plan properly no bankruptcy court would be able to touch it. When you make a company pay for your retirement from their current revenue you are asking for disaster.


"If you believe the majority of airline pilots make six figures you need to stop getting all of your industry info. from USA Today."

ALPA states that the average United pilot, before the pay cut, makes $130,000 per year.


"The financial realities of two failed carriers, one walk on the picket line, and one more major furlough, only to be lucky enough to start again at the bottom of another major has cleared my thinking to aviation. "

Some of these issues are not with the airline but with your union. Ask any corporate guy how many times he has had to start with a new company due to downsizing etc. Aviation is a cyclical business, and in the case of the airlines, made worse by corporate raiders passing for CEO's but also corporate raiders passing as union members.

 

[goldentrout]

Mr. Beckett

Thank much for so eloquently making this "punk's" points with your own words.

1. "Show me the money, period. I don't want to hear promises of how great things might be someday, pay me today."

As I said, you and your type are more concerned about your own wallets than the health and viability of your profession...or your companies for that matter. Maybe if you'd fcoused on the profession as a whole way back when, you wouldn't be starting over today.

2. "The financial realities of two failed carriers, one walk on the picket line, and one more major furlough, only to be lucky enough to start again at the bottom of another major has cleared my thinking to aviation."

So the ALPA system in place you've been in for the last 20 years or so has gotten you two liquidations, and a furlough...and you want to defend this system?

I'll grant you that mangement has some fault in this whole mess...any MBA who signed those outrageous contracts with only the slightest hope of ever being able to cover their overhead, ought to be fired on the spot.

I do thank you for teaching me one good lesson though...not to bit the hand that feeds you.

Correction: I stand corrected. SWA has been around since 1966, or 1971 depending on how you look at it. In any case, they have made a profit every year since 1976...a 26 year run...through the first Gulf War, and even after 9/11...and in the face of growing RJs and of other low cost carriers.

 

[Swass]

I side with goldentrout, maybe it is time for a new way of doing business. Follow the lead of SWA, if not then get the he!! out of the way, your union mentality may have something to do with it.

 

[A Squared]

SWA and Regulation.

Although it is true that SWA started before de-regulation, it should be noted that Airline regulation applied to *Interstate* airlines. Before deregulation, Southwest was an *intrastate* airline and thus was not a beneficiary of the guaranteed revenues that regulation provided.

If you take a look around you, you will notice that all the airlines that are doing reasonably well either started after degegulation, or were unregulated intrastate carriers before degegulation.

Another way of looking at it, Southwest, Alaska, ATA, Jetblue, etc. were companies which dealt in a competitive environment from their beginings. The other airlines were protected from competition by regulation, and now almost a quarter of a century after regulation went away, are still unable to function in a free market.


Perhaps we should stop propping them up and let them die out so that they may be replaced by companies with workable business models.


regards