UAL Concession Details

[trainerjet]

While cruising another message board, I ran across these details of the tentative pilot concessions at United. (LCO = Low Cost Operation)

6 year contract
30% paycut (from 29%)
no pay raise for another 3 years, then 1.5% per yr
pension reduced (1.35 multiplier, equates to about 35% of salary)
no furlough protection (can furlough as needed)
fly up to 89 hours (95 hours for LCO)
Minimun pay reduced to 65
20% medical contribution
747 pay now reduced to 777 pay (with 30% cut)
Airbus pay reduced to 737 pay
No RJ limits at Express
70 seat RJs allowed at Express
No domicile protection, company can base pilots anywhere including International. (LHR / EGLL), United Kingdom">LHR and NRT / RJAA), Japan">NRT very much possible)
LCO (low cost operation) agreement, see above
No first class Deadhead (FF favorite subject)
Vacation override eliminated (media favorite)
3 year equipment freeze (up to 4.5 on LCO)

 

[46Driver]

I was just reading some of the same things - the one thing that caught my eye is a statement that the 70 seaters are tied to Jets 4 Jobs. Not good. Hope somebody has got more info.

 

[logolight]

So no more scope clause. I don't know if the "Jets for Jobs" is still going to take place.


________________________________


"Blueridge, welcom to Chicago... we need you in the penalty box for a twenty minute update."

 

[goldentrout]

Just one quick comment for the senior UAL (and US Air) guys who refused to, as I remember the quote from this board so many months ago, "give up a dime...I earned everything I have."

Nice job "preserving the profession."

Now I know why "greed" is one of the seven deadly sins.

Yes, yes, Tilton got 9.6 million last year...that's less than 1/2 of 1% of the 2 billion UAL lost last year.

In light of the great success of the US Air and UAL MECs'
"preservation" efforts, might I suggest an alternative strategy at AMR, NWA and DAL.

Start negociations today that...

1. Get rid of all scope clauses except this one "all flights at our airline will be flown by a pilot on THE seniority list" (I think this is ALPA's new buzz word "brand scope").

2. Allow the company to buy as many planes of whatever type they want. Why? Because their job is to fit the right plane on the right market to maximize profit for the company, without artificial barriers set up to "preserve pilot jobs" (translation, "maintain senior pilots wages and benefits, and to heck with the rest of the pilot list, all other employees, and the company...furlough is a right of passage").

3. Merge the seniority lists of all companies owned by the same airline. I'll concede to some fences, as to not make this to traumatic for some, but this really is the best way to be fair as far as job security and seniority goes. If the lists had been merged by date of hire, all the DAL furloughees would be flying at least an RJ somewhere, and most if not all the pilots at ASA/Comair hired after 9/11 would not even have a job.

4. Come up with a realistic pay scale that allows the company to ride out hard times, and rewards employees in good times (profit sharing, like at SWA...those guys got thousands upon thousands of dollars during the 1990's, bringing their salaries close to mainline levels, yet they still make a decent living during these hard times...and their company IS NOT IN BANKRUPTCY).

or

We can follow Mr. Woerth's plan paraphrased from one of his speeches...get ALPA on the SWA property...hold SWA management hostage to accept a contract comparable to current rates...then SWA will have to raise thier ticket prices to pay their pilots, and all will be right again in airline wonderland.

If this is the brilliance we're all counting on to pull the airline pilot profession out of it's current hole...then many of us better get the number to the local truck driving school.

 

[becket]

Goldentrout,

I find it ironic that you chastise the mainline pilot for trying to cover his own as*, as you do exactly the same thing with your thinly veiled suggestions of "one list".

I know with your 2100 hours as a federal employee, you're an expert on the history of the profession, but you may want to rethink batting for the managment side. I realize how cool you must think you look in the right seat of a regional jet, in your snappy new uniform, but If you want to earn 1/3rd the money of what every pilot in this country made, flying the same kind of equipment did, before greedy, self serving, short sighted "pilots" like you came along, then go ahead. However, I don't appreciate you trying to drown me with you.

Fight for your rights as a commuter pilot. The harder you fight, the larger you make the bed for guys like you, (and unfortunately, guys who want a real career) to lie in. I have a feeling in 10 years, when you're still flying a "regional" jet on 2500 mile legs, for guys like Jonny O. for Government cheese pay and zero benefits, Maybe you'll rethink your position on this. But by then, after you've done all you can to destroy the quality of this profession, I can only hope you're the only one that gets to reep what you've sown. I hope when you're 60 years old, you still can look in the mirror and admire your snappy pilot uniform with as much blind enthusiasm as you apparently do now. Good Luck, with guys like you in this industry we'll all need it.

I know, I'm just another one of those greedy major pilots who has no understanding of business... We've heard that line for over 70 years now. It's old.

 

[DAL737FO]

Goldentrout,

Where do you come up with this method for merging the lists?

3. Merge the seniority lists of all companies owned by the same airline. I'll concede to some fences, as to not make this to traumatic for some, but this really is the best way to be fair as far as job security and seniority goes. If the lists had been merged by date of hire, all the DAL furloughees would be flying at least an RJ somewhere, and most if not all the pilots at ASA/Comair hired after 9/11 would not even have a job.

Please don't say Alpa merger & integration policy. Most people that want to shout DOH is the policy have never read the policy. About the best you could hope for is merger Comair/ASA then staple with furlough protections based on date of hire. The only problem is management likes the current setup and has no incentive to allow a merger of lists. The Delta pilot PWA doesn't require it and management likes it's ability to use it's "portfolio" of regional airlines.

furloughed DAL737FO

 

[skydrvr]

In regards to concessions from UAL and for that matter all who are being asked to "give"...what is management contributing to this.?
Where as it seems that labor is always to blame when it comes to saving an airline what about one UAL's previous higher ups (mgmt)..one who was paid $41 million to leave and another who was brought in and paid $3 million before he even walked in the door. Where is the incentive for mgmt? Answer: there really is none higher ups are usually highered. Therefore they get their money regardless of the outcome. This is unfortunately is legal but very unfair.
DAL's CEO "Leo" paid himself $10 million + (around $13million) in bonuses this month and now Delta has announced they will be having more layoffs. How much is enough?!
Why should any labor union give concessions when this continues to be the case. Where I believe in helping to save jobs when is mgmt going to learn the blame should not be blamed on us.

 

[mach none]

Goldentrout,

I find it ironic that you chastise the mainline pilot for trying to cover his own as*, as you do exactly the same thing with your thinly veiled suggestions of "one list".

I know with your 2100 hours as a federal employee, you're an expert on the history of the profession, but you may want to rethink batting for the managment side. I realize how cool you must think you look in the right seat of a regional jet, in your snappy new uniform, but If you want to earn 1/3rd the money of what every pilot in this country made, flying the same kind of equipment did, before greedy, self serving, short sighted "pilots" like you came along, then go ahead. However, I don't appreciate you trying to drown me with you.

Fight for your rights as a commuter pilot. The harder you fight, the larger you make the bed for guys like you, (and unfortunately, guys who want a real career) to lie in. I have a feeling in 10 years, when you're still flying a "regional" jet on 2500 mile legs, for guys like Jonny O. for Government cheese pay and zero benefits, Maybe you'll rethink your position on this. But by then, after you've done all you can to destroy the quality of this profession, I can only hope you're the only one that gets to reep what you've sown. I hope when you're 60 years old, you still can look in the mirror and admire your snappy pilot uniform with as much blind enthusiasm as you apparently do now. Good Luck, with guys like you in this industry we'll all need it.

I know, I'm just another one of those greedy major pilots who has no understanding of business... We've heard that line for over 70 years now. It's old.

Very well said and I could not agree more!

 

[earlthesquirrel]

I have a question.

Why don't pilot groups push to model their airlines to a model that more closely resembles that of successful airlines? There may be an argument that they can't, management makes those decisions. But that is what negotiations are for.

Example: Southwest has a defined contribution plan for pilot retirement, it includes a match for employee contributions, stock options etc. If the company goes belly up the pilots keep their retirement, although their stock would be worthless. Now what does this have to do with the current state of affairs in the airline industry? Well I read an article that United owed 12 billion to the company's retirement fund, that U.S. airways has had to trim billions from it's retirement fund. This is just one example.

 

[FlyComAirJets]

DAL73FO

Where does one come up with a method of merging the lists? Simple answer, actually. Current events compel management to seek solutions (i.e. concessions) from their workforce. If management demands it, it is not unreasonable to counter offer for something in return. Isn't it obvious that anything is negotiable in the present economic environment?

Since management has gutted contracts containing heretofore "untouchable" items like pensions, it certainly shows that they have no problem with it. UAL and USAirways contracts were completely ammended mid term. American is next.

ALPA has a long history of contentious mergers and has developed a quite reasonable merger POLICY mechanism. What a shame that union leaders are too myopic to invoke their own policy. The airline business has been fundamentally changed, a fact which some continue to ignore.

What we need to do as members of The Pilots' Union is to come together and engineer solutions. The hiring by ASA and CMR in the last year and a half could have substantially absorbed the DAL furloughees.

But one have to at least try with some of the leverage that we do possess. And so far, there has been too little effort to bring it about. Instead, there is all this hand wringing and wailing that 'oh they'll NEVER agree to that.' And with that attitude, you are correct, it will never happen.