Sorry to burst the delusion of Gradure that you guys seem to have but here's a news flash. The pilots at every airline are nothing more than W2 Wage earners. They don't make the decisions that will make or break a company. I could go on all night about how Steven Wolf and his cronies continued to rape and pillige this airline. They totally abrogated their fudiciary responsibilities to the share holder, and their moral obligation to their employees and our customers. Wolf refused to meet with alpa several times regarding the rj's. It litterally took an inquiry from Congress to get him to the negotiating table and he walked away from the most liberal rj deal in the industry. Steven Wolfs Neglect got us into the position. Period. That's it. Employees did not manage to put us in this position at all. This fact was directly addressed by our new CEO when he said, and I quote directly, "the managment that got us into this mess, is not the managment that can get us out" You can go on blaming the pilots for the demise of the airline all you want. I know you think you're god like because you have an ATP, (maybe) but when you eventually come back to reality, maybe you'll realize how completely idiotic it is to blame the employee for the managment failure, which US Airways clearly is. I have never understood the wholly owned mentality that assumed that our MEC is omnipotent. I have also never understood why their percieved short stick is all our pilots problem either. I guess I'm missing something. I've never been a fan of entitlment.
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FR8mastr
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Becket, please answer a few questions for me. What was so terrible about flowthru? Why does the Mainline MEC not want to deal with the WO's. Why would you guys not just fly the rj's at the mainline with the same rules as would be at POT. Why do you think Management only will aknowledge ALPA at POT but not actually have it there? If the Mainline guys at POT ever get recalled what do you think will happen to the new pilots that take their place? Remember POT is non Union now, just like it was for the United deal. I'm not busting chops, I really want to know.
FR8,
1. Nothing is wrong at all with a flow thru. Believe it or not, Flow thru was supposed to be a part of the "big" rj deal that was discussed back in 2000. Remeber when Wolf wanted another 35 rj's and we gave them to him, part of that very deal was that WITHIN SIX MONTHS we were supposed to hammer out a comprehensive rj deal that, among other things, would have provided a flow thru. US Airways MEC specifically made that part of the mini deal and Wolf signed it. What happened then you ask? Well, the United merger. Wolf ignored the rj issue as well as the entire airline for a year and a half chasing his tail for the big 60 dollar a share pay off. They violated the terms of the mini deal years ago and here we are today. Again, it's Wolfs fault.
2. The only thing I've ever seen where our MEC has said they are having any difficulty at all with the wholly owneds is post 9-11 where we recieved a letter basically saying that the wholly owned MEC had more or less declared war on our MEC and that they were disappointed that it would be so difficult to work with them. I'm sure everybody has a viewpoint on why they're pissed and I'm sure some points are probably valid, but you asked and that's what I know.
3. There is not a pilot at this company that wouldn't rather fly rj's on the mainline, even for the same pay, than at POT. You'd have to ask Dave Siegel why he is making the airplanes go over there. I really have no idea. Again, managment, not pilots. If we could just snap our fingers and make the airplanes appear at any given carrier, wouldn't you think we'd put them on the mailine? Of course we would, therfore we don't have the power than some would like to believe we do.
4. When the first pilot hits the POT property in a training environment POT will be an ALPA carrier. Those two events will be simultaneous. POT is nothing but a shell at this point. When it gets ramped up it is automatically an ALPA carrier.
5. After POT runs out of furloughed mainline guys I guess they'll hire off the street or make some arrangment for guys to make a lateral move over to POT. Again, You'd have to ask the CEO what the plan with POT is. I really don't know. Will it be here in 5 years? Your guess is as good as mine. Will US Airways be here in 5 years? UAL? AWA? who knows.
I hope this answers your questions. Take them for what they are worth, I'm not in a position of authority and these are all my personal observations. The condition of US Airways is the fault of Steven Wolf and his cronies. They lied, they stole, and they have levereged everything this airline has to keep it's head above water. We get Force Manjeured out of 11,000 jobs, we are going to get pay, and benefit cuts but don't you find it suspicioius that FM applies to only the union contracts? Wolf and Gangwal still get their multi-million dollar seperation packages. Somehow FM doesn't reach that high. Funny.
1. Nothing is wrong at all with a flow thru. Believe it or not, Flow thru was supposed to be a part of the "big" rj deal that was discussed back in 2000. Remeber when Wolf wanted another 35 rj's and we gave them to him, part of that very deal was that WITHIN SIX MONTHS we were supposed to hammer out a comprehensive rj deal that, among other things, would have provided a flow thru. US Airways MEC specifically made that part of the mini deal and Wolf signed it. What happened then you ask? Well, the United merger. Wolf ignored the rj issue as well as the entire airline for a year and a half chasing his tail for the big 60 dollar a share pay off. They violated the terms of the mini deal years ago and here we are today. Again, it's Wolfs fault.
2. The only thing I've ever seen where our MEC has said they are having any difficulty at all with the wholly owneds is post 9-11 where we recieved a letter basically saying that the wholly owned MEC had more or less declared war on our MEC and that they were disappointed that it would be so difficult to work with them. I'm sure everybody has a viewpoint on why they're pissed and I'm sure some points are probably valid, but you asked and that's what I know.
3. There is not a pilot at this company that wouldn't rather fly rj's on the mainline, even for the same pay, than at POT. You'd have to ask Dave Siegel why he is making the airplanes go over there. I really have no idea. Again, managment, not pilots. If we could just snap our fingers and make the airplanes appear at any given carrier, wouldn't you think we'd put them on the mailine? Of course we would, therfore we don't have the power than some would like to believe we do.
4. When the first pilot hits the POT property in a training environment POT will be an ALPA carrier. Those two events will be simultaneous. POT is nothing but a shell at this point. When it gets ramped up it is automatically an ALPA carrier.
5. After POT runs out of furloughed mainline guys I guess they'll hire off the street or make some arrangment for guys to make a lateral move over to POT. Again, You'd have to ask the CEO what the plan with POT is. I really don't know. Will it be here in 5 years? Your guess is as good as mine. Will US Airways be here in 5 years? UAL? AWA? who knows.
I hope this answers your questions. Take them for what they are worth, I'm not in a position of authority and these are all my personal observations. The condition of US Airways is the fault of Steven Wolf and his cronies. They lied, they stole, and they have levereged everything this airline has to keep it's head above water. We get Force Manjeured out of 11,000 jobs, we are going to get pay, and benefit cuts but don't you find it suspicioius that FM applies to only the union contracts? Wolf and Gangwal still get their multi-million dollar seperation packages. Somehow FM doesn't reach that high. Funny.
Last edited:
FR8mastr
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2002
- Posts
- 803
Becket, thanks for your responce, it is appreciated. As far as your views of Wolf and Management I couldnt agree more. The only thing I disagree on was prior to the United deal starting your MEC once put off LOA 78 (I think that was it) for almost two months because of a crew meal grievance. I remember the code a phone announcement "no further talks untill the grievance is resolved" Prior to that the MEC was promising that a flow thru agreement along with rj's would be resolved prior to any new hiring at the mainline. These two things are what really got a bug up the WO's butts, as we knew the importance of the RJ issues way back. As it turns out the RJ and flowthru thing was more important than either of us thought.
The letter you refer to after 9/11 was mainly because of the mainline announcement that Mesa and whoever were going to be getting future RJ's. If and when the "mesa's" get more RJ's it will be at the WO expense. One of the other carriers was not even ALPA.
As far as POT and ALPA I hope your correct, it seems to me management is going above and beyond to not officially let ALPA in. I don't know the legalities of it all, it just sounds fishy. Tell whomever will listen to watchout.
I just found out tonight that our management (your managemnet) has asked our pilot group for more concessions, and announced that we are losing 6 or more dashes this year.
they also want to take away some of our defined benefits, mainly our retirement and premium pay. The reason for this, according to managemement, is to make room for the new RJ's. Our mec has figured that we will be down to 31 dashes by next July. It's obvious what this will do to our pilot ranks. Ofcourse this is all preliminary, at least the concession part of it. Losing the Dashes and management asking is fact. Alot of us feel bitter about this because we have been screaming about this for years and it seemed as if we were just being dismissed by the mainline MEC. Now your furloughed guys will be putting our guys on the street and we still cant get a seniority number at the bottom of your list.
I hope in all this tirade that you understand the WO point of view a little more as I want to understand the mainline issues. I believe the only way we can survive all this in the longrun is to work together for a commom goal. We have a good start, we all want mainline to survive and grow, we just want the WO to be included. Thanks again for responding.
The letter you refer to after 9/11 was mainly because of the mainline announcement that Mesa and whoever were going to be getting future RJ's. If and when the "mesa's" get more RJ's it will be at the WO expense. One of the other carriers was not even ALPA.
As far as POT and ALPA I hope your correct, it seems to me management is going above and beyond to not officially let ALPA in. I don't know the legalities of it all, it just sounds fishy. Tell whomever will listen to watchout.
I just found out tonight that our management (your managemnet) has asked our pilot group for more concessions, and announced that we are losing 6 or more dashes this year.
they also want to take away some of our defined benefits, mainly our retirement and premium pay. The reason for this, according to managemement, is to make room for the new RJ's. Our mec has figured that we will be down to 31 dashes by next July. It's obvious what this will do to our pilot ranks. Ofcourse this is all preliminary, at least the concession part of it. Losing the Dashes and management asking is fact. Alot of us feel bitter about this because we have been screaming about this for years and it seemed as if we were just being dismissed by the mainline MEC. Now your furloughed guys will be putting our guys on the street and we still cant get a seniority number at the bottom of your list.
I hope in all this tirade that you understand the WO point of view a little more as I want to understand the mainline issues. I believe the only way we can survive all this in the longrun is to work together for a commom goal. We have a good start, we all want mainline to survive and grow, we just want the WO to be included. Thanks again for responding.
NCFlyer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2002
- Posts
- 320
Becket,
You can stand on your scope pedestal and claim “we got it, you want it, too bad”. But let’s look at some of the facts. The U MEC got scope protection not through superior negotiating skills but rather management’s desperate need to get contract concessions to try and keep USAir operating. If memory serves me well the concessions were in the area of $150 million per year in wage and work rule concessions. So you can stand up and rightly say you bought your scope protection. Management would have just about given up the farm for the concessions. In reality management may have only prolonged the inevitable. U has managed to survive a few more years but may well be on its deathbed as we debate the scope situation.
Let’s look at some other facts:
1. USAirways has the highest seat mile cost in the industry, nearly double SWA’s cost.
2. USAirways “parity +1%” virtually guarantees it will remain the highest cost airline in the industry. Management may have been able to swallow the higher cost with productivity gains but now USAirways biggest competitors aren’t United, Delta, & American (whom they are guaranteed parity with). But rather their biggest competition comes from ASA, Comair, ACA, Eagle, and CoEx. There is no way Airbuses & Boeings can compete cost effectively against RJ’s.
3. Every major airline in this country has looked at & decided that RJ’s could not be operated cost effectively at the mainline level. And that is not just because of the pilot wages. It is the entire overhead associated with operating the aircraft. Mainline mechanics, flight attendants, and costumer service personnel costs are all higher at the mainline and reduce the cost effectiveness of the RJs.
4. Much if not the majority of USAirways east coast flying is regional flying in nature. They just do it in Airbuses & Boeings.
5. We at the wholly owneds don’t want the mainline jobs. We would love to see the mainline continue to grow & hopefully provide jobs for some of our pilots.
However, when Wolfe-Gang was at the helm of this ship both were on record stating their desire/need to replace up to 80% of the Express turboprops with RJs. Then in the next sentence saying there is no plan to put RJs at any WO. Now it is getting real personal. Here at PDT we have 60 Dash 8s. If you replace 80% of those with RJs and no RJs come here we are left with 12 D8s + 100 pilots.
Furthermore what business is it of you and your MEC if Airways wanted to replace all of the turboprops with RJs so long as no mainline pilot is affected? What right do you have telling any other company what kind or how many aircraft they can fly? Now I know you are going to tell me that your scope clause gives you that right, but why? As long as no mainline pilot was/is affected the mainline MEC should have no say in what is done at the regionals.
Now we can play could of - would of - should of until Hades freezes over but that doesn’t get us any closer to a solution to the problem facing us today:
USAirways is loosing money at the rate of over $2 million per day. To survive they are going to have to cut cost. Passengers want RJs & will go to whoever has them. Mainline can’t fly them cost effectively. So since the mainline can’t operate them effectively shouldn’t that be the WOs who for years have contributed to Airways bottom line, not the contract carrier who take their cash & run and in some cases even fly for our competition?
In conclusion:
I don’t know who Becket is but he has the attitude that seems prevailing at Airways (both among pilots & management). I want as much as possible for as long as possible (max pay to the last day) and I don’t want to give up anything (but who does). Then when Airways goes out of business he will take his multi-million dollar lump sum distribution & live happily ever after in his beach house. The problem is for those of us too young to retire & too old to start over we will be left on the street looking for work again.
You can stand on your scope pedestal and claim “we got it, you want it, too bad”. But let’s look at some of the facts. The U MEC got scope protection not through superior negotiating skills but rather management’s desperate need to get contract concessions to try and keep USAir operating. If memory serves me well the concessions were in the area of $150 million per year in wage and work rule concessions. So you can stand up and rightly say you bought your scope protection. Management would have just about given up the farm for the concessions. In reality management may have only prolonged the inevitable. U has managed to survive a few more years but may well be on its deathbed as we debate the scope situation.
Let’s look at some other facts:
1. USAirways has the highest seat mile cost in the industry, nearly double SWA’s cost.
2. USAirways “parity +1%” virtually guarantees it will remain the highest cost airline in the industry. Management may have been able to swallow the higher cost with productivity gains but now USAirways biggest competitors aren’t United, Delta, & American (whom they are guaranteed parity with). But rather their biggest competition comes from ASA, Comair, ACA, Eagle, and CoEx. There is no way Airbuses & Boeings can compete cost effectively against RJ’s.
3. Every major airline in this country has looked at & decided that RJ’s could not be operated cost effectively at the mainline level. And that is not just because of the pilot wages. It is the entire overhead associated with operating the aircraft. Mainline mechanics, flight attendants, and costumer service personnel costs are all higher at the mainline and reduce the cost effectiveness of the RJs.
4. Much if not the majority of USAirways east coast flying is regional flying in nature. They just do it in Airbuses & Boeings.
5. We at the wholly owneds don’t want the mainline jobs. We would love to see the mainline continue to grow & hopefully provide jobs for some of our pilots.
However, when Wolfe-Gang was at the helm of this ship both were on record stating their desire/need to replace up to 80% of the Express turboprops with RJs. Then in the next sentence saying there is no plan to put RJs at any WO. Now it is getting real personal. Here at PDT we have 60 Dash 8s. If you replace 80% of those with RJs and no RJs come here we are left with 12 D8s + 100 pilots.
Furthermore what business is it of you and your MEC if Airways wanted to replace all of the turboprops with RJs so long as no mainline pilot is affected? What right do you have telling any other company what kind or how many aircraft they can fly? Now I know you are going to tell me that your scope clause gives you that right, but why? As long as no mainline pilot was/is affected the mainline MEC should have no say in what is done at the regionals.
Now we can play could of - would of - should of until Hades freezes over but that doesn’t get us any closer to a solution to the problem facing us today:
USAirways is loosing money at the rate of over $2 million per day. To survive they are going to have to cut cost. Passengers want RJs & will go to whoever has them. Mainline can’t fly them cost effectively. So since the mainline can’t operate them effectively shouldn’t that be the WOs who for years have contributed to Airways bottom line, not the contract carrier who take their cash & run and in some cases even fly for our competition?
In conclusion:
I don’t know who Becket is but he has the attitude that seems prevailing at Airways (both among pilots & management). I want as much as possible for as long as possible (max pay to the last day) and I don’t want to give up anything (but who does). Then when Airways goes out of business he will take his multi-million dollar lump sum distribution & live happily ever after in his beach house. The problem is for those of us too young to retire & too old to start over we will be left on the street looking for work again.
NC Flyer,
I don't have the energy to reply to your entire post. Just a few factual points you may not be aware of.
1. If the pilots worked for free, US Airways CASM would still be the highest in the industry. The problem is not the pay of the employees but in the structure of the airline.
2. CASM is HIGHER in an RJ than in either a Boeing of Airbus.
3. How do you propose we fly 60 million pax a year with an all rj fleet?
4. Bottom line is this, the WO guys are getting a taste of what it is like at Mainline to watch your flying be transfered away. We've been seeing it for years. Now we have a chance to recover some of it via J4J or POT. How do you expect our ALPA to procede? Like it or not, it's our dues money, therefore they will push our interests. Just like your airline is doing for you. There is no Union. Just the Association. If you think J4J is total B.S. then by all means block this LOA and send the airplanes to POT where they belong.
I don't have the energy to reply to your entire post. Just a few factual points you may not be aware of.
1. If the pilots worked for free, US Airways CASM would still be the highest in the industry. The problem is not the pay of the employees but in the structure of the airline.
2. CASM is HIGHER in an RJ than in either a Boeing of Airbus.
3. How do you propose we fly 60 million pax a year with an all rj fleet?
4. Bottom line is this, the WO guys are getting a taste of what it is like at Mainline to watch your flying be transfered away. We've been seeing it for years. Now we have a chance to recover some of it via J4J or POT. How do you expect our ALPA to procede? Like it or not, it's our dues money, therefore they will push our interests. Just like your airline is doing for you. There is no Union. Just the Association. If you think J4J is total B.S. then by all means block this LOA and send the airplanes to POT where they belong.
NCFlyer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2002
- Posts
- 320
Ref: becket says "If the pilots worked for free, US Airways CASM would still be the highest in the industry. The problem is not the pay of the employees but in the structure of the airline."
I couldn't agree with you more. There is another thing we agree on: J4J is BS and I believe that all the RJs will end up at POT.
I couldn't agree with you more. There is another thing we agree on: J4J is BS and I believe that all the RJs will end up at POT.
JetProp
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 170
>"Bottom line is this, the WO guys are getting a taste of what it is like at Mainline to watch your flying be transfered away. We've been seeing it for years".
This is nothing new to us. We have seen contract carriers show up on many routes with RJ's and TP's. The fact is WO and mainline flying both are being transferred away.
This is nothing new to us. We have seen contract carriers show up on many routes with RJ's and TP's. The fact is WO and mainline flying both are being transferred away.
JetProp
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 170
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