Potomac Air & Jets for Jobs

taz

Board Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2001
Posts
50
Total Time
12pm
It seems quite odd that when USAirways originally started their Quest for a merger with United and gave birth to Potomac Air that all the Wholey Owned Pilots and ALPA cried bloody murder because of the percieved threat to their jobs. Now that Airways wants to startup Potomac Again with their (mainline) employee's all of a sudden all the "Wrongs" of the past magicly become "Right"!!!!!
Whats wrong with this Picture? I wonder who are the real "WHORES" now!


Their is no arbitration judge that will allow this to "FLY"!!
 

Beavis

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 1, 2001
Posts
102
Total Time
4700
Dude, you are crazy! What makes you think that anyone at a wholly owned thinks ANY part of this deal is "right" now??? This deal sucks for us now as much as before! And we will wait and see if we can resurrect our alter-ego greivance once this starts up! Where did you get the impression we are for this? That is insane! The 3 wo's are once again being left out of any deal which brings RJ's to our property. Being left out, once again, leaves us feeling that the flying we do will eventaully be outsourced to Potomac and Mesa. Nobody sees it any different!
 

CRJFlyer

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Posts
535
talked with 2 buddies from Allegheny today and they feel pretty much the same way. They are afraid that unless they get the jets the flying they do will be outsourced. One guy (who's in the SIM was worried about possibly being furloughed because of the deal) he also said that somebody in the training department is somehow against getting jets. But don't quote me on that last one.
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
Well, maybe it's because those jobs at Potomac Air will be their jobs, and they've got 1350 on furlough. Could that have anything to do with it? That's why scope is the most important item in a contract. It's to conserve jobs for your own members.

Arbitration??? What's there to arbitrate? Does your scope clause prevent the startup of a new company with new aircraft and possibly new routes flown under U code?

For the sake of arguement, does your scope provisions prevent, say, US Air mainline from buying RJs and have them flown by mainline pilots under US Air code? If not, why not? If mainline scoped its regionals out of unlimited aircraft, why didn't you guys scope them out of flying RJs?
 
Last edited:

Timebuilder

Entrepreneur
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,625
Total Time
1634
Last week, I had two charters where Allegheny mechanics had to be flown out of MDT to fix broken airplanes. This week, I'll ask some questions.

If I find out anything, I'll put it here.

This sounds pretty bad...
 

chperplt

Registered User
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,123
Total Time
.
Maybe I just don't understand what the big problem is here. US Air is a dying company that is trying to get itself back from the dead. They want to increase their RJ flying to do so. So what if they want to put their furloughed pilots in the seats of those jets. Why is it such a big problem? I haven't heard or read anything that suggests any of the wholly owned carriers will lose flying or jobs because of this. Even if some flying was lost, without those RJ's, that flying would be lost to other carriers in the long run anyway. And without those RJ's, US Air goes by-by and the there are no more wholly owned carriers.

If these RJ's bring back customers with $$$$, then the long term effect on the entire system which includes the wholly owned, will be brighter.

Someone tell me what I'm missing.
 

VelcroJetDriver

Active member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Posts
31
Total Time
4300
It's all US Airways flying and should be flown by US Airways pilots (if they want it.)

In the grand scheme of things, us regional guys are just "hired help" doing the flying that the mainline guys don't want to do. If you don't like it, apply to the low-cost majors/nationals (Jetblue, SWA, Air Tran.) Just quit whining about how US Airways pilots are taking away YOUR USAirways flying. (Just listen to how ridiculous that sounds!)

:mad:
 

becket

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Posts
722
Total Time
12000
Velcrojetdriver, AMEN TO THAT 1000'S OF TIMES OVER. Get over it wholly owned, the flying isn't yours okay? Got it yet? NOT yours. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation. 1100 mainline pilots are on furlough and you guys have been expanding. Whose expense do you think this comes from? You are entitled to NOTHING just like Spaulding in "caddyshack"... "You'll get nothing and like it!!!!" If you're life sucks look in the mirror. That's the guy who got you here nobody else. Quit blaming the US Airways pilots or their MEC. Get over it.
 

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
Not Quite

Excuse me!

I recently chided the regional pilots that it was not their flying. Well it is not the mainline pilots either.

The point you are missing is that when uSAirways signs an agreement with Mesa that restricts Mesa from doing other flying and imposes certain rules on them, that comes with an obligation the other way as well.

That you will not compete with me works two ways.

If any of you think that this whole thing is not the end of scope as you know it, you are not looking at the situation. Literally everythin g that has happended says that the airlines are not going to take this stuff anymore. If they have to reverse code share, spin off, sell out right, or whatever, they will not be going along with any of the restrictions that reduce their right to manage their own assets.
 

FR8mastr

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2002
Posts
803
Total Time
13000+
Becket, you are either a Mainline pilot or you don't really understand what all the complaining is about. I guess that's the same thing. I know I have 0% chance of explaining any of this to you so I won't waste both of our time trying. But I would ask that you please try to get all the info on the US situation before blasting the WO's. (that means both sides)
 

BoredToDeath

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2001
Posts
171
Total Time
3000+
Velcro and Becket,

Please refrain from making comments that you are ignorant about.
 
Last edited:

VelcroJetDriver

Active member
Joined
Mar 10, 2002
Posts
31
Total Time
4300
Gee, I guess you told us.

Care to "enlighten" us ignorant types why Express pilots have a greater right to fly USAirways routes than furloughed mainline pilots?

:p
 

BoredToDeath

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 12, 2001
Posts
171
Total Time
3000+
Velcro,

I'll try, but keep in mind I am not trying to be the expert on this subject. All of the information I share here was given to me by my fellow pilots on the line. My personnal opinions have been formed by what I have seen, heard, and learned during the past year at PSA. I think its important for you to also understand that I am not in favor of shrinking Mainline flying, nor do I want to stay at a commuter for the rest of my carreer. I'm just building my time.

I'll start by giving you the way that some, not all, of the WO pilots view the US Airways Group.

The US Airways Group is made up of four airlines:
US Airways Mainline
Piedmont
Allegany
PSA
and now they add a fifth Potomac again.
Then we have the contract airlines:
TSA
Mesa
CC Air (which is part of Mesa)
Chataqua (sp)
Shuttle America
Collgan
(I think I got them all)Thats alot of express flying at the expense of the WO express airlines.

Basic math, Group is losing money hand over fist. The mainline operation had to make cuts. Even PSA furloughed for a few months. Now I absolutely feel for the Mainline pilots who are and will be furloughed, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to give up my seat so that he/she can have a job. Had there been a flow through set up when they had the chance I would have no choice but to step down so that they could work. But thats not the way things are. These pilots took a chance on the #6 airline and it did'nt work. Hopefully they will be back at work soon so that everyone can move on to big iron. But with this company it does not look like that will happen. If the Mainline MEC really cared about these folks who got furloughed they would have takin consesions like Airtran and some others did. So much for brotherhood. I honestly don't care if the Group wants to send the furloughees to Potomac to fly, god knows there won't be any recalls for a long time. But Potomac should be made up of entirely all furloughed Mainline Pilots, no outsiders. The Jets should be divided up between PDT, ALG, PSA, and POT. For the past year all I heard was that the WO airlines would not get jets due to the fact that Group could not afford them. Now it would seem that a WO airline(POT) would in fact be getting jets. If that is so then they need to be divided among us all. The use of contract airlines needs to be reduced. And normall pay rates should apply across the board. I can't see POT being of any use if the Group has to pay Capt rates to both the Capt. and FO on an RJ. It does'nt make sence.

I hold no animositey toward the contract airlines other than the fact that by using them destroys the ability for PDT, ALG, and PSA to grow and fly jets. The idea is to keep all US Airways Group flying within the US Airways GROUP.

{Quote}It's all US Airways flying and should be flown by US Airways pilots (if they want it.)

In the grand scheme of things, us regional guys are just "hired help" doing the flying that the mainline guys don't want to do. If you don't like it, apply to the low-cost majors/nationals (Jetblue, SWA, Air Tran.) Just quit whining about how US Airways pilots are taking away YOUR USAirways flying. (Just listen to how ridiculous that sounds!) {Quote}

You honestly don't think that the Pilots make the decsions on what routes they fly, do you? If this is true then how can I tell the company that I'm tired of flying to Nashville. Mainline flying is based on how profitable a paticular route is. WO pilots know what their job is. We want to succesfully feed the Mainline aircraft so that the group will make money, increase Mainline aircraft, destinations, and freqency so that we all can move up.

You see sirs most of us are not pissed about what routes we fly. We're pissed becuase we have to sit back and watch the contract airlines fly jets into the same airports we serve. This airline did not have the foresight to see how vaulable the RJ was going to be, and now the Group is playing catch up. Too little too late.

Becket,

All I can say is, I think you need some anger management. Good luck to you sir.
 
Last edited:

FR8mastr

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 4, 2002
Posts
803
Total Time
13000+
Bored, good post! please allow me to continue with some more thoughts. 1st that mainline can't afford to buy RJ's. They pay Mesa or whoever on a per departure basis, just for argument sake lets say its $1000. out of that $1000 the Mesa's can afford to make aircraft payment, pay the crews, maintenance ect. So the reality is they are allready paying for the RJ's just not making the profit, Mesa is. I agree with you totally that Nobody at US group wants to see reduced flying at mainline for the same reasons you stated. The thing that really gets the WO is the fact that the mainline mec tries so hard to send as much feed and all the RJ's to contract carriers at the expense of their fellow group pilots. But now that they have pilots out of work they come up with jets for jobs. Under this gem the WO get jets, mainline guys that have been employed for a couple of years or less go to the top of seniority to fly them. At first glance this isnt to bad. But a closer look reveals that when that new RJ shows up and replaces one of the props, the prop pilot is on the street. They can flow down,but we can never flow up. Yea great deal! A couple of years ago just before the United fiasco the mainline had a chance at flow thru that included just about everything they asked for IE job security, numbers of large jets and more. All they had to do was not get too greedy, but no, not to be. So yes now the WO are POed. But still willing to work any deal that will not put WO pilots on the street
 

typhoonpilot

Daddy
Joined
Feb 24, 2002
Posts
1,381
Total Time
17000+
FR8mastr:


The terms of this deal are much looser than the previous attempts. The only thing it says besides, 50% of the jets will be staffed by furloughed mainline pilots, is that they will be paid 1st year Captain rates regardless of seat occupied. I haven't seen any formula for how they would be integrated seniority wise or which seat they would fly in. That has yet to be worked out at the individual carriers.
 

JetProp

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
170
Total Time
10000+
Bored to death,
Good post. You summed it up very well.
-Jetprop
 

Vinman

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 30, 2002
Posts
83
Total Time
4100+
I agree whole heartedly with Fr8 and Bored. This and I am not employed by a WO carrier. Like was stated at one point, the Mainline pilots took a gamble at moving up to a Major job. They gambled their previous job/seniority to get the big piece of cheese ($$$$). Just because you take a job with a major doesn't mean you now are garaunteed a job for the rest of your life. If you thought you are entitled to a job at the regionals if they have jets, then why did you go to "USAirways," why did you not go to one of the 3 WO? The 3 WO have different names on their letterhead because they are not USAirways, hence the reason that the pilots who are working there make nowhere close to a mainline CA pay. Why now should you be able to go to their company and be able to get CA pay for any seat?

With that said, I do realize what mainliners are trying to do. At the rate that RJ's are growing in size, why are they being called RJ's any more? They are just about the size of a mainline jet and that is their point. USAirways could try to reduce all mainline flying to international or coast-to-coast flying and leave all other flying to the Express flying at a much lower pilot/support cost. (Who knows, maybe that is their plan?)
 

skydiverdriver

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
869
Total Time
5000+
According to ALPA's bylaws, the regionals should have been merged with USAirways many years ago, and then this would not even be a question. Welcome to the fight, a little late, but welcome. Send a check to the rjdc if you want to help.
 

Timebuilder

Entrepreneur
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
4,625
Total Time
1634
Are those ALPA bylaws available for public view on a website? I'd like to know how their song differs from their dance...
 

skydiverdriver

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
869
Total Time
5000+
I honestly don't know. But one thing I do know is that they quickly changed their bylaws as soon as we took them to court to press the issue. So, the union I joined in good faith, changed the rules after we joined them, to the detriment of all pilots who fly aircraft under 71 seats. Now, that's an organization that I can get behind! Join the rjdc now, if you ever want to work in this industry.
 
Top