Multi-cfi's I Need Your Help

[spitfire1940]

VMC demo

Hey,

One more thing. You want to make sure you know your DE's preference for recovery.

The DE I send most of my students to wants recovery at the first sign of losing directional control. A wise choice, in my humble opinion.

But I did my private multi with this psycho DE who wanted a 30 DEGREE LOSS OF HEADING before you initiated the recovery. We all kind of thought it was stupid. A year or so later, this DE crashed a Seminole with a multi/private candidate (they both walked away from it, thank God.)

Rgds,

 

[CRJ puppy]

Generally most DE's will expect at least a 10o loss of direction since the FAR's required the a/c to recover from a 20o loss of control in the most unfavorable condition...per FAR 23.149...

Usually about 5o of that is the student not using enough rudder as their instructor was always blocking it, so they don't have their seat far enough forward to fully depress the rudder...

The reduction in throttle is just enough to regain directional control...in this demo that isn't idle...and it isn't the intent of the maneuver as I previously stated....trading ALL performance (ie, some thrust on the operating engine) for directional control is for when you ARE putting the a/c on the ground...to avoid hitting the mall, senior citizen center, day care center, etc...

This point of the maneuver is to RECOVER and CLIMB away from the ground (safely), all WHILE REGAINING directional control after an unitentional loss of directional control due to an engine failure after liftoff and ensuing loss of a/s due to inexperience, distraction whatever...

Have a "Happy New Year" everyone...

 

[Booker]

The latest PTS also removes blocking of the rudder to require full rudder. I'm not comfortable with that, although being comfortable is not really part of doing a Vmc roll.

This came up where I work. Most of the DEs still seem to be okay with MEI applicants limiting the rudder when demonstrating. I don't know what they do on Part 61 private/commercial rides, though. (We have examining authority for 141 multi ratings.) But, we fly the mighty SEMI, and as such you will virtually always get the stall horn before seeing the nose slip. So, one could say that the only thing the student would ever see is a single-engine stall, which is not the only point of the maneuver. Maybe doing it both ways, with and without limited rudder, would be best.

Just some food for thought.

 

[CRJ puppy]

If you practice the maneuver with zero bank (wings level, ie., side slipping) and while banking towards the INOP engine, you WILL see a loss of directional control without blocking the rudder (except at very cold winter temps). This is why the FAA desires you (MEI's) to practice the maneuver with your students in this manner in addition to banking as required (usu. only 2-3o in the Seminole & Duchess)...They need to see what a loss of directional control REALLY looks like....

This is a hell of alot less nerve racking maneuver than power on stalls in the Seminole and the student applying inappropriate aileron input as a wings drops.....

 

[Booker]

If you practice the maneuver with zero bank (wings level, ie., side slipping) and while banking towards the INOP engine, you WILL see a loss of directional control without blocking the rudder (except at very cold winter temps).

Excellent point. Another reminder that the checkride way isn't the only way.

This is a hell of alot less nerve racking maneuver than power on stalls in the Seminole and the student applying inappropriate aileron input as a wings drops.....

Concur! I've been there and done that myself, though, in my student days. It's even more fun in the Baron. But like you say, Vmc demos don't hurt my nerves at all.

 

[stardog]

This is a hell of alot less nerve racking maneuver than power on stalls in the Seminole and the student applying inappropriate aileron input as a wings drops.....

You practice power-on FULL stalls with one engine inop? Mommy!

 

[Wiggums]

No, a power on stall with both engines running can be pretty exciting depending on the student's recovery method.

 

[JediNein]

Hmmm, well I have polished my technique on recovery from inverted flat spins with recovery on a heading +/- 5 degrees...

But that Army study on single-engine stalls in the Baron is sobering. When I find the study online, I'll post it. The study essentially stated that in a single-engine stall, the pilot had one second to get the power off the working engine in the Baron or the spin that resulted was not recoverable.

How would the Seminole/Duchess T-tail affect the stall/spin recovery? Can that nose be pitched down?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[CRJ puppy]

Good LORD!

I didn't mean to imply practicing power-on stalls in the Seminole with one engine inop!!

They are FAR too exciting when you have both engines at reduced thrust (18", high RPM) the student pitches up and close to the buffet, the plane drops a wing and the student "SNAPS" in opposite aileron! Although I can report that the Seminole recovers nicely from the incipient stage of a spin...though having the right wing tip pointing directly to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean WAS a special experience!

Ever seen the Pope kiss the ground after he deplanes? I wanted to do it that day but thought it might alarm the student....

God, do I miss flight instructing!!

 

[IP076]

Power-On SE Stalls

Don't know what and where you guys fly, but it seems to me that I do Power On Single Engine Stalls daily in the Seminole. Its called a VMC Demo at 4000' AGL when the ground is 5000' MSL. The Seminole always stalls first at these altitudes.

This manuever isn't always finished with the "recover & climb away". Most of the time if this were to happen at my airport, it would be the "recover, and land with airplane control and wings level" instead of cartwheeling down the highway after hitting the ground in a VMC roll.

I teach my students exactly what the PTS says; "Reduce power as required". You have to understand that this may be not at all. Close to the ground you can recover from the roll by just lowering the AOA.