Airline Pilot Pay and Attitudes...

[LR25]

I will keep this short.

If the difference between regional pay and major pay is becuase of revenue, I will pose this question.

Look at USAir, to me it looks like the feeders, PDT for one is holding up USAir.

Where is my pay raise?

Maybe we need a revolving pay scale, when you do bad an I do good, I get the big check, vica versa.

If I am wrong on my perspective, I will get more edgucated.

LR25

 

[kilomike]

Hey KSU!!

KSU,

What a crybaby you are. WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

Your name calling shows your maturity level. WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Anthony]

Interesting article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56746-2002May8.html


Curious to hear what some of you guys/gals think.

AJ

 

[SpeedRacer]

Labor Article

I for one say "Congrats" to the United and Delta pilots on their great contracts!!!!!!!

Not to change the subject but did I miss it or has anyone called for MANAGEMENT taking some paycuts for a change!!?? I bet they could live off a measly $200K vs. $2 mil a year - unless their highly stressful, incredibly dangerous office jobs are worth more! Doubt that....


See Ya!

Speed

 

[peepsmover]

Barney Fife vs. El Nino/SpongeBob, Et al

People, people, can't we all just get along?! Ha! I promise no pious Anthony like sermon, nor flagrant wrapping oneself in the flag to hide dull thinking. Even a kid can bait..."SpongeBob Square Pants is the devil himself!" See? Oh yeah, I'm a vet too, but so what? I've flown with Captains who make that criminal pay of $250K+ who were Vietnam POWs and they'd tell Anthony the same thing, leave saving the whales out of this stay on issue:

The simplistic reality is economics. In majors that have an effective union, the pilots not only make more money, but also their companies make more money. Those salaries were not simply conceded to, nor handed over, some were earned after lengthy strikes, all in all they were business decisions. The pilots witheld their labor and the company withheld their wages until it became too costly, for both parties, certainly the company could have hired replacement pilots which in some instances has happened. Your pronouncement that the airlines are going under because pilots are making too much money, is way too silly. Your statement sounds like a comedy line right out of "Dr. Strangelove." (That is a movie not a porn film) Why not blame it on "El Nino" or the fact that Al Gore couldn't win in his home state? My ideas are much more plausible than yours, because mine at least allude to complexity and yours, well its BarneyFifesque at best.

Airlines having financial problems, oh my lord! Cats and dogs living together! Is this really a revelation? Are you braying about the obvious, or are you crying about something new? No, it is not new and so pray tell my good pilots what happens? Anyone? Anyone? Ferris? CHORUS: Well that is when pilots forgo pay increases, incur pay decreases, or worst suffer forloughs.

It is economics, and so whether an airline is able or willing to pay what the contract calls for it is always driven by the economics of the situation. So just like the weather, pay is always subject to change. And like any contract negotiation, more often the company is in a better position and the pilots are not. I know that is a new concept for you to understand, but your ignorance perplexes me, since I too was an army geek. Clue: civilian pay unlike govt. pay is subject to a negative change (economic term: contraction).

To place things into context, I have had the honor of working with some captains that are approaching retirement, and they all have figured that adding all the time they have been forloughed for whatever economic/labor unrest reason, they averaged 10 years without a job, B scale, and no raises for over 6 years on one stretch. Factor in inflation, and "no raises" means less buying power each year. That get rich scheme all was with their current company. You take that same scenario and look at how many of our fellow pilot buds are without jobs, and then consider that some aren't even at the majors yet, the fast/quick buck to riches you rant about is suddenly a long ways off, yet mandatory retirement at age 60 keeps steadily approaching. My point is that turbulent times in the airline industry is a constant, deal with it. You are not offering anything new, other than your ignorance.

You add the costs of financing your own flight training and you quickly see that this is a labor force that paradoxically has high costs for entry, yet pays poorly where a large pool of pilots are striving to build their time, all without a warranty to the exorbiant $250-300K you literally shriek about. For example, you always hear about attorneys making $300K a year, well that only happens to an elite harvard/yale few, average wages are probably $50K; look at any profession, you will find that the same holds true. So my message to you is simply that while the $250-300K is a lot, you need to realize that pay is solely international pay, can contract, and many do not acheive it. But overall the majors do pay well, and with good reason, those wages reflect the turbulent industry, sacrifices made, professional development invested, distances flown and the larger volume of passengers carried, hence they can pay more. Does a CPA with a small company get paid the same as one with a Fortune 500 sized company? No. Unlike the Army, not everybody in the "scary" free market is paid on the basis of how many years they have been there irregardless of what they do. OK., you got me, "flight pay" but in reality it is solely a pimple on the ass of this equation.

Certainly I sympathize with my bretheren in the regionals, and my opinion is as strong or weak about their future as anybody else, but I suspect that eventually market forces will in turn increase their salaries, which might even cause narrow body rates to fall, who knows? Still, our collective strength as a union is to insure that we raise all boats as much as possible, it is in our mutual interest.

Finally, pilot pay is a nice flame bait issue, "Us vs. Dem Greedy Bastards," but if you analyze it carefully you will see why pilots for the majors do get the big bucks and why when times are tough they will sacrifice: it is an economic reality. The syllogisms
Anthony offers are weak, and sophmoric at best. They illuminate a reality he cannot change: people are luckier than others in that there are only a finite amount of jobs with the Majors, nobody is better than anyone, they are simply more fortunate, is that so wrong? Karl Marx said "It is very wrong." Groucho Marx said "That's what my girlfriend's sister said and now she's my wife! I should have listened to her."

Oh yeah, I planted trees, fought forest fires, I do recycle, I don't eat my dandruff, I do wear an American flag pendant on my tie, I vote, I dont own an SUV, I sometimes watch PBS, I do volunteer work, I dont ask for plastic at the grocery store, I do use deodorantzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[HvyjetFO]

WTG Peeps

Peeps,

Nice summation. If this were a time of economic prosperity, the notion of pilots getting paid too much wouldn't even exist, and everyone would be tripping over everyone else trying to land one of these "overpaid easy jobs".

Hvy

 

[bobbysamd]

Wash Post article

It's not a bad article, actually. When it comes right down to it, though, pilots and management have always been at loggerheads. Management has always felt that pilots are overpaid, going back to the time of the first airmail contracts in 1918. During strikes, if management tried to maintain operations, it had plenty of pilots from which to choose to hire to scab itself out. Pilots have always felt they're underpaid and felt that management made them operate unsafely against their will.

The curious thing is that George Will chose American. American may have had very few CEOs. Its first CEO was C.E. Smith, who was a protege of E.L. Cord. Read about 'em both in Flying the Line. E.L. Cord had a deal where he made pilots resign and reapply to be paid at lower wages. Compare Cord and Smith to the old Continental. From what I've read and recall, the old Continental Airlines before the Lorenzo days was a great place. People sung the praises of Bob Six.

Now, from what I understand about Southwest, whom Mr. Will cited, Herb Kelleher has tried to create a congenial work atmosphere, and workers are therefore happier and productive. Of course, Southwest has its union(s).

I dunno if binding arbitration is the key. Tension between labor and management seems to come with the territory of working for an airline.

 

[peepsmover]

George Will

Now here is a guy, Will known for not having an original thought, his ideas are chiefly to underlie his penchant for baseball. Remember those wonderful skits on Saturday Night Live about Will's infatuation for baseball? Hmmm the next thing he will proffer is that baseball dugouts are so zen-like, we should use them as meditation centers, and make attendance mandatory for all inner city children. Will totally evades the economic reality of those bankruptcies, tacitly laying the woes at labor's feet. Arbitration is always a bad idea no matter what industry you are in. Studies have always shown that mediation is the best for both parties. I mean it so comical, Will is essentially saying baseball is what America is about, so what is good for baseball is good for America, how moronic is that? Arbitration is not a new idea, it has been around a long time, just think, why isn't arbitration used to establish all salaries and wages for all workers? Finally, read the fine print of your insurance policy, or warranty, usually it says that you concede to go to binding arbitration, why is that? Because the shysters that crafted that fine print work for the corporation, so it certainly is not in your favor as a consumer, why would it be any different as an employee. If a corporation is truly in dire straits, employees will make concessions, it has always happened. America's CEO, a person you would think is committed to the free enterprise system, is actually advocating something else, do you think he would concede to letting his own salary be determined by arbitration?