Air Force to UAL New Hire

AirCobra

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There it is

When all else fails wrap yourself in the flag eh?

So that is what it is then? A hookup to reward military service?
Look, I have a job and a good business an no one will tell me that I am not patriotic bc I was never in the military.

Ual. Aa. Fedex SWA dal

These are private corporations, with publicly traded stocks-
This is a very good conversation to have- why do you feel yip that military pilots are entitled to jobs at these valuable majors over civilians?

Because again- the real problem is THEIR sense of entitlement, not my reaction to it.
Well for starters SWA has a lot of 737's. The Air Force and Navy and have a lot of 737's (T-43's or P-8's). I think a few thousand hours of 737 time would make someone a more attractive applicant than even RJ guy, who you place at the pinnacle of aviation experience, even if the RJ guy had more total time.

Yep the hookup? Here is the secret. All through flight school many Navy guys didn't want fighters or strike so they intentionally planned not to finish in the top 10% of their class, for the sole purpose that eight years down the road they could steal civilian jobs. :laugh:
 
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AirCobra

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So, now you are saying all those guys in the military who are pilot trainers/instructors don't know how to fly, are even less qualified than we first thought and should get a job flying Cessna 210 a couple thousand hours before even applying so they could "learn how to fly all over again"?

I guess we do agree an something.
Since is seems you don't know the difference between a military instructor pilot (which for example is a collateral duty at the squadron level) and a CFI, and somehow equate the two, there is really not much to talk about here. Let me give you an example, ACM is taught with the instructor in another jet.

Come back when you have something intelligent to add.
 

hammer2

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Yeah but you really have to "work" to get a 1900 job. Most guys take those as a last resort when the "fly and RJ in as little as 250 hours" thing doesn't pan out. I have known many a Great Lakes pilot. There first goal after getting hired is to get out of Great Lakes, not to build flying skill. Remember the programs where you paid to sit right seat in a airliner then got an interview with a regional when you were done? I am sure that is a solid way to build experience. Way better than solo x-country in a say a T-38. :rolleyes:
AC, that's not necessarily the truth. A lot of us civies decided to build our time as a freight dog instead of going to a regional. We did this because the pay was significantly greater than regional pay and you would progress to a Lear or Falcon. This was when the magic number was 1000 hrs turbine pic, and less emphasis on 121 experience.

Which begs the question...why are fractional pilots so overlooked? They can outfly and outhink all of you! :p
 

AirCobra

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AC, that's not necessarily the truth. A lot of us civies decided to build our time as a freight dog instead of going to a regional. We did this because the pay was significantly greater than regional pay and you would progress to a Lear or Falcon. This was when the magic number was 1000 hrs turbine pic, and less emphasis on 121 experience.

Which begs the question...why are fractional pilots so overlooked? They can outfly and outhink all of you! :p
Freight dog is not a Beech 1900 job and usually requires more experience than a regional job. For a long time places that flew single pilot Navajo's still required 1200-1500 hours. I have talked to a lot of kids (I would say the majority) that didn't want to instruct or didn't want to fly single pilot in a Baron or Navajo, they would rather get in the right seat of an RJ. That is not a great way to build stick and rudder skills, which is what I think lower time military pilots have over higher time RJ pilots, just by the nature of the type of flying they do. It may seem like a guy that is good at reading a checklist or a whiz with avionics might get by, and they very well might often until the chips are down (Air France, Colgan) and someone needs to actually fly the aircraft. Then 4000 hours of sitting in the right seat is no replacement for someone who spent 1500 hours with their hands and feet on the controls.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/investigations/FAA-Report-Pilots-Addicted-to-Automation-233081801.html
 
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Dan Roman

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Then 4000 hours of sitting in the right seat is no replacement for someone who spent 1500 hours with their hands and feet on the controls.
You are correct about hand flying time being important and more and more becoming a lost art. But I have to disagree with your perception of RJ flying. 4000 hrs of rt seat RJ time equats to 2000 hrs of hands on flying in and out of a combination of high density and small, non precision approach type airports in all kinds of weather. That's why the RJ pilots often have have exceptional instrument flying skills. I don't disagree that military pilots get excellent training and a lot of experience in fewer hours. I just disagree that one or the other is "better"
Wave, we have plenty of both mil and civ at Hawaiian and I haven't seen anything of the negative about mil you see at SWA. The ex mil folks are awesome, great to fly with and I can't think of one that I would call "cocky". They bring to the table great experience and a strong desire to learn about civil ops, which is easy for them to do as they have proven they can handle "learning" very well.
I have to wonder if yours and other SWA comments about mil and in particular PHX mil pilots, is a by product of SWA's culture more than a statement of mil pilots in general.
 

AirCobra

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How much military time do you have? I found the worse examples "Of get the mission done" in the civilian world especially with Part 135 and corporate operations. Money is the strongest motivating factor. I never have seen so much second guessing of pilots as I did when you get a DO or CP under pressure to make money.
 

AirCobra

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You are correct about hand flying time being important and more and more becoming a lost art. But I have to disagree with your perception of RJ flying. 4000 hrs of rt seat RJ time equats to 2000 hrs of hands on flying in and out of a combination of high density and small, non precision approach type airports in all kinds of weather. That's why the RJ pilots often have have exceptional instrument flying skills. I don't disagree that military pilots get excellent training and a lot of experience in fewer hours. I just disagree that one or the other is "better"
Wave, we have plenty of both mil and civ at Hawaiian and I haven't seen anything of the negative about mil you see at SWA. The ex mil folks are awesome, great to fly with and I can't think of one that I would call "cocky". They bring to the table great experience and a strong desire to learn about civil ops, which is easy for them to do as they have proven they can handle "learning" very well.
I have to wonder if yours and other SWA comments about mil and in particular PHX mil pilots, is a by product of SWA's culture more than a statement of mil pilots in general.
I agree that there is plenty of skill and talent in the regional world especially after the unfortunate circumstance of many pilots not being able to move up to the majors. On the other hand there are a lot of problems with low time pilots and I have heard numerous complaints from captains having to "babysit" guys with minimal skills. I am sure you can find these complaints in any of the old "PFT" forums. Recent incidents and FAA reports are showing a degradation in flying skills due to an over reliance on automation. Any CFI doing a BFR on a guy with a decked out Cirrus could probably tell you that.

RJ's fly fast and so do T-38's. It is not the nature of the person, just the nature of the fact an AF guy will have a few hundred hours in a jet, thinking at 250 knots rather than thinking at 100 knots. Why is this such a radical concept for people? The training is better, oh well. Why is that offensive?

Getting hired at an airline has a lot to do with whether they think the guy will be successful in training. People coming from structured, quantifiable training programs with the additional advantage of having turbine time will always have the upper hand. That is not going to change, no more than a 737 captain with Sun Country will have an advantage if they wanted to go to Southwest. Would Wave start complaining of secret Sun Country pilot conspiracies?
 

Russ

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Lamenting low time in the seat next to you isn't the sole provence of the civ world.
 

zasca

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RJ's fly at 100kts? That's news to me...

T-38's Do a lot of flying in crappy weather, under time pressure, for 12 hr days, 4 days in a row, dealing with incompetent support staff, MEL's up the wazoo, etc, etc.

The training argument is stupid. There is NO training that prepares one for Regional flying. It's something you learn as you do it in real time.

There are terrible civvie pilots and terrible mil. pilots. Who cares about generalities??? Just deal with the person you're sitting next to today.
 

AirCobra

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RJ's fly at 100kts? That's news to me...

T-38's Do a lot of flying in crappy weather, under time pressure, for 12 hr days, 4 days in a row, dealing with incompetent support staff, MEL's up the wazoo, etc, etc.

The training argument is stupid. There is NO training that prepares one for Regional flying. It's something you learn as you do it in real time.

There are terrible civvie pilots and terrible mil. pilots. Who cares about generalities??? Just deal with the person you're sitting next to today.
You misread my post (RJ's fly fast, meaning they fly at jet speeds like a T-38, not at Cessna 172 speeds). Turbine time prepares you for flying turbines. Structured training environments prepare you for structured training environments. You don't make it to the line unless you make it through training and that is where the advantage comes in for a mil trained pilot. Sorry you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
 

wms

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Airline flying is more than handling the plane. Being in 121, especially regionals, bombards the crew with distractions that are operationally removed from mil flight crews. I've been doing a lot of OE with mil guys lately and they're stunned at how much the nonflying functions interfere with the flying. It takes a lot of experience to learn to compartmentalize the two without leaving anything out.

It's pax issues to Mx, to ops, to 117, to hotels and transportation to all the support required for the flight, which is never where and when it's supposed to be, to all the regulatory t's and i's, including determining deice and how and where each station does it, all within a 24 min turn. It's a totally different mindset and ops tempo.

Once the plane is in the air and we're cruising along, then it's break time.
 
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zasca

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I was saying the argument was pointless. Not worth arguing. So no, I didn't speak up for the sake of argument...
 

Birdstrike

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Problem is, I was just as "unqualified" but capable at 2000 hours just like the mil guys- with few type ratings and years of 121 under my belt-
Nobody would accept a civilian like that-
Couldn't possibly be your personality had anything to do with it, would it?

Nah, 'bet you're just as peachy at interview as you are on FI.

Still waiting?
 

waveflyer

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as opposed to your sense of entitlment because of all the hard work you have done in your career that these gov't service people never did, is that what we are hearing? That you have given so much more of yourself that anyone in the service ever did? You should get your union to vote to only hire 1 militarty pilot per class, you should bring it up at your next meeting, the unfairness of it all.
It's not just about hard work. It's about performance and attitude on line.
You are spring loaded to hearing what you want to hear- I want an equal spot at the hiring table - that's it. We have thousands of military pilots doing things right and being great. I want all of those we can get our hands on-

Can I make arguments for why civilians deserve more than 4 slots in a new hire class without you going all sarcastic crazy?

Everything you say, would address a situation where military backgrounds didn't dominate the hiring process-

4 out if 30 is discrimination yip. Especially when civilians have a much better reputation than military guys here on the line.
 

waveflyer

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You are correct about hand flying time being important and more and more becoming a lost art. But I have to disagree with your perception of RJ flying. 4000 hrs of rt seat RJ time equats to 2000 hrs of hands on flying in and out of a combination of high density and small, non precision approach type airports in all kinds of weather. That's why the RJ pilots often have have exceptional instrument flying skills. I don't disagree that military pilots get excellent training and a lot of experience in fewer hours. I just disagree that one or the other is "better"
Wave, we have plenty of both mil and civ at Hawaiian and I haven't seen anything of the negative about mil you see at SWA. The ex mil folks are awesome, great to fly with and I can't think of one that I would call "cocky". They bring to the table great experience and a strong desire to learn about civil ops, which is easy for them to do as they have proven they can handle "learning" very well.
I have to wonder if yours and other SWA comments about mil and in particular PHX mil pilots, is a by product of SWA's culture more than a statement of mil pilots in general.
That's EXACTLY what I'm saying dan.

We had a period in the 90's where military pilots didn't even have to interview- which led to the Phx base being what it is-
It's the sense of entitlement that makes them bad at their job, not their background-

Now, when a mil guy goes to class with 26 ex mil and a couple of civilians- then get thrown out online where that culture exists- what attitudes creep in? What do they become? Where's their perspective?
 

waveflyer

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Lamenting low time in the seat next to you isn't the sole provence of the civ world.
Thank you ^^^

Except that- when at the SWA fedex dal aa as ual's of the world - the main people captain's are babysitting are military pilots- bc they've never done this

And I'm sorry- That's why they end up sucking- they know it's not a carrier and it's not a fighter and don't respect the airplane or job and don't do what they got to do to be good and have wanker personalities to go along with it.

All of that is the definition of unqualified-

Training and IOE are non events for the civilians worth hiring. Which is most of them.

To your question AC, Why am I off my rocker to think that if you're getting one of the best jobs in the world, pilots should be fully qualified and ready and not learning "on the job"?

Again- mil guy who flies a 737 for the military- does not tend to be the problem Kernal
 
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