Unions

[FlyinBrian]

follow-up

To follow up to my previous post in which I did metion that I am for the unions in the pilot industry...

While I am a firm believer in the free market...
Before the unions, airlines engaged in many unsafe practices and often fired pilots who refused to comply with unsafe procedures, or who blew the whistle on such things. I believe it is in the best interest of safety that pilots present a unified front in keeping wages that draw the best, brightest, and safest pilots into the profession. I also believe that it is in the best interest of safety that unions protect pilots who refuse to fly dangerous equipment in less than safe or legal conditions. All told, unions have had a positive effect on the safety of all airline passengers.

Unfortunately, as many posters have pointed out, their monopoly gives the unions a tremendous amount of power, and that power can lead to greed. The unions often ask the airline to accept un-profitability in order to pay their wage. If the union is not willing to allow its members to fly a particular route at a wage the company can turn a profit at, the airline naturally looks to another source of labor to do the flying. Rather than work out an agreement where their pilots would fly the profitable equipment at a reduced wage, the union tries to "scope out" the flying so that nobody can do it. This gives their own airline a competitive disadvantage, and hurts the long-term success and profitablility of their own airline. At the same time, it allows the company to pit different groups of pilots against each other, and ultimately capitalize off of the whipsaw effect. If the mainline pilots would realize that sometimes to make a profit, and airline has to put a smaller piece of equipment on a route, and accept the slightly smaller salary that accompanies that equipment, we could truly unified pilots, job security for more experienced pilots, and no whipsaw for the company to use against us. American's pilots have realized this, and to nobody's surprise, the company laughed in their face.

av8instyle, you are right when you say it's not about YOU, it's about UNITY. But the unions don't offer that right now. We have pilots arguing with pilots, and management is using this stryfe to its own advantage.

In most cases, what is good for the company is good for the long-term opportunities for its employess. We should try to preserve the profitablility of our companies while ensuring safe work rules, and wages that draw the safest pilots to the profession. (That is not to say that more is better. If more means the company lays off or closes its doors, more is definitely worse. Not all unions understand this.)

 

[Tim47SIP]

FlyinBrian - excellent post. I do understand the analogy about the turd also. Simple eight grade math is all anyone needs here to understand the economics behind it all.

IFF worte "They have no business to whine now that things have changed. Nobody could predict 9/11 but the economy was already slowing that "summer of discontent" (love that one). They still chose to sign. Too late now. A contract is a contract."

Lighten up a little! Before you jump in my poop, I work for the same company you do, but I am an ATR guy so I guess you can consider the source. But even if I am an ATR guy that cant spell, I can see through some of our Unions tacticts. Publsiher didn't say anything derogitory (in my opinion) about management. I know a contract is a contract, buy hey S*&T happens! as in your quote above. The problem here is in the inflexibility of the use of a "Contract is a contract". These contracts need to be written to help out management in the bad times and reward the pilots during the good times. Delta management proposed this solution to DALPA during the negotiations and DALPA flatly refused. My guess is that they did not believe the numbers that Delta would be using for the profits and losses. But my point is that DALPA could have negotiated a finance commitie to watch over the number crunching. The attitude of "its not my problem, they signed the contract" wont get anyone ahead. Everyone stays the looser. Furloughs, Delta continues to loose money, etc. Remember, it takes both parties to keep the company solvent, and United and US pilots stance concerning their contract has made them the classic example of what the other majors can look forward to if they continue to remain totally inflexible.
Just my one cents, because ATR guys dont get issued enough cents to make two.

 

[av8instyle]

...hence the term "contract"

In fact, a contract IS a contract. When the company signed the contract that meant they agreed to its terms. Just like they would stick it to the pilots if pilots broke the contract, so should we!

It's the pilot group's job to get the absolute best contract they can, and it's the bean counters' job to make sure the company makes a profit after it's signed.

Yes, I agree with the supply/demand point. However, we DO deserve what we get, and the ONLY reason that we get it is because of our Union Leaders, past and present, and our pilot groups.

 

[FlyinBrian]

a contract is a contract...

IFF, I'm not sure I can go along with that. I think almost any reasonable person understands that sometimes extraordinary, unforseeable events occur that require some relief and accomodation. Suppose you were supposed to show up for a trip tomorrow, but you lost your legs in a car accident, and you were out of sick and vacation time. The crew scheduler would not tell you "that's some tough tough luck bud, but you still have to fly the trip tomorrow" (I know everyone is thinking "at my airline... I wouldn't put it past 'em")

I think If I applied your logic to my own life, I would never commit to anything. I'm not saying that your Union should just cave... but I can't accept that a contract is a contract, they signed it, and no matter what happens, they have to honor it. There are circumstances in which extraordinary circumstances dictate that some relief is in order. If the company doesn't have any money, they can't pay you, and you'll be out of work just like the bean-counters whose job it was to try to turn a profit. In the meantime, maybe we ought to help them turn a profit so they can continue to pay us for awhile.

 

[A Squared]

av8instyle,

Is the company you speak of known by a three letter title? Is "economy" a part of the full name?

 

[av8instyle]

hmmm...

I can neither confirm nor deny during this era.

 

[publisher]

United Airlines

If you think that the contract negotiated with United was one where they could have taken a strike, etc, etc,.

I repeat what i said. With the possible exception of American before September 11 or SWA, there are few ailrines that can withstand a strike anymore or even refusal to fly overtime.

Almost no business people thought that the United contract was anything but onerous and liekly to lead to a severe strain on their ability to make any money except in the very best of times.

If it would not have been so frought with pain, it sure would have been interesting to see how things would have worked without the government bailout.

Goodbye USAir, Goodbye America West, United would have been divided, and Southwest Airlines would have been the number one airline in America taking massive share from American Ailrlines.

 

[av8instyle]

...schools?

OK. If you really want to count work experience as training, then how about this:
4 years of undergraduate
2-3 years graduate
1-2 years as a CFI
Get the UPT slot
4 years from start of UPT to 4 ship flight lead
Another 3 years at a commuter getting the required PIC
Add that to the 3 months of initial major training plus the 2 weeks recurrent every 6 months.
Oh yeah, how about the countless hours of study on ops limits, boldface, SOP's, FAR's, Company regs and procedures, etc.

I calculate that to also add up to over 16 years of hard work.
And, no I don't think that every pilot takes this path, but at the Majors the majority of them have taken a very similar path, particularly the military guys. By the way, add another 6 months per fighter for every fighter flown beyond initial assignment.

I'm not going to get into a debate over which profession requires more training because they both are obviously two of the most tasking occupations you can do. And I also remember saying that I HEARD this somewhere and could not confirm. But I will say that I think your addition of pilot training over the course of a career falls a bit short of reality. I think there are a lot smarter people at ALPA than you or I and you ought to give a little credit where a little credit is due. That union has done wonders for this profession, and anyone that denies that fact must be management.

 

[av8instyle]

Geez-for a 33 year old surgeon that supposedly takes decades to complete, you sure do have LOTS of experience.

Actually, I think I'm the one that struck the nerve, must be that lack of surgeon like training.

And, I'm pretty sure I DO have a clue, but thanks for the insults, nevertheless.

By the way, what the heck are you doing on an aviation employment board with all of that doctor training you're in the middle of?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Chief11ac:

Kindly correct me if I am mistaken, but do Doctors have to sit for the boards every six months? In my previous profession there were few continuing education requirements to continue my certification. Really, I could sit in a seminar for ten hours a year and continue my practice. As a pilot, I play "you bet your job" every six months while undergoing proficiency checkrides and again on six month intervals getting physicals.

While Doctors sometimes get sued for malpractice, more often than not serious mistakes are not followed up on. Violations are somewhat easier to get in the part 121 world and just as often as not, end your career.

So while I agree with the majority of your statement - could it also be that pilots are paid in light of the additional career risk that comes with the scrutiny of the profession?

There are hours of checkride preparations, studying revisions and just staying current that are not compensated. If you look at the total time a pilot's car stays in the parking lot, it usually adds up to around 280 hours a month - so I'm "at work" 70 hours a week. Sure I might only fly 20 hours a week, but how much time does a Doctor spend actually practicing medicine, as opposed to reading charts, coordinating with staff, documenting and billing?

It is a difficult comparision - but I certainly feel like I earn my money - the fact I enjoy my job is the bonus!