The RJDC is a cancer on the industry

[RJFlyer]

Dave Griffin - Exactly!

73GDog - here is a reference for you, from Encyclopedia Brittanica:

United Nations - international organization established by charter on Oct. 24, 1945. It was the second multi-purpose international organization established in the 20th century that was worldwide in scope and membership, the first such organization being the League of Nations, established by the Treaty of Versailles in 1919.

The UN was formed after WWII, which coincidentally (and as Dave Griffin pointed out) was the last time the US declared war. It has since become 'politically incorrect' to unilaterally declare war on another country, hence all the coalitions and UN peacekeeping missions. We were not the only Western nation to fight in Korea, Vietnam, or the Gulf Wars. But if you want to bury your head in the sand and maintain that none of those was a war, knock yourself out - and watch out for sand fleas.

I sensed that you, unlike myself, derived some sort of pleasure out of seeing Delta pilots hit the street

I could quote you several times where I stated that I don't think it's a good thing, but rather a necessary thing. I thought I was also pretty clear on why I believe that to be so. No I do not take pleasure in it - period. Your apology is accepted.

 

[73GDog]

DaveGriffin/RJFlyer,
Again I ask, who are we at war against? What country, what government. Of course I believe we should be going after the terrorists organizations however; I do not see a distinction between the current fighting and what occured as a result of the 1993(not sure of the year) bombing of the world trade center. We have been fighting terrorism for as long as I have been alive. Americans both here and abroad have been killed by both foreign and domestic terrorists(McVeigh). My point is that I do not consider us to be in a war emergency. To characterize our current situatiion as a new sort of war, as RJFlyer has done is false in my eyes. We have been fighting terrorists for decades and will continue to do so well after we are all dead and buried. I have a brother who flies B-52s out of Barksdale(2nd bomb wing) and is involved with our current fight against terrorism and I believe he is fighting for a very noble cause as are police officers and FBI agents who fight against organized crime. I do not believe we are involved in a war emergency and you all and I will never see eye to eye on this issue. By the way Dave, you say the detainees in G. Bay are considered part of a criminal organization, not an army. What is the difference between them and the mafia which by the way, the U.S. government fought for many years and resulted in the death of a substantial number of U.S. citizens. We are currently fighting organized criminals, not an army, not a country and not a government.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

RJ,

I believe we are going in circles. Our contract does not address mainline flying rj's because we do not have the power to make that decision. All it does is list block hour percentages allowed. It is up to management to decide what to do when they hit those limits. Our contract does not prevent them from putting additional rjs on mainline. Therefore, it is incorrect to say we are trying to limit rjs. We simply do not have the power.

Secondly, we may or may not have harmed your career. That is not the issue. The issue is, were any laws broken in doing so? I believe that none have been, and that is why I believe the rjdc will lose in court. I think I demonstrated this in an earlier post. You can accept my reasoning or not, it is your decision. But please stop posting the same argument. I cannot state the same response in any other way. There is nothing in our contract which would prevent management from operating any airplane. If you disagree, I invite you to post the language. Until you do so, I think this argument is becoming redundant.

 

[surplus1]

Part I of Two Parts

Surplus,

Another good post. I will concede a few things, then get to the meat of the discussion. Some things, like the seniority issue and the amount of money sought, we will never agree on, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Thanks. I feel the same about your posts. Yes, we do have to agree to disagree on some things. Even so, the more consensus we can reach the better. The less on the table the easier to reach a solution.

Befpre I get started, however, I would like to make a small point. I know that you do not mean to insult, but some of your post made it sound like you have done more research than I, and I am being mislead by my MEC.

My apologies. I did not mean to insult you personally or to disparage your research. It is obvious that you have done a lot of good research and candidly, that is why I am having an exchange of thoughts with you. I formed the opinion that you have something to say that's worth hearing. Quite different from a majority of the posts on your side of the equation. Do I believe you were misled by your MEC? In the matter of our alleged demand for DOH integration, the answer to that question is, YES (unless of course you are a member of that MEC. If you are, then you are party to the misleading of your DAL peers.)

I have done some research as well but more importantly, I think, my opinions are based on having lived through the events on an "I was there basis." That fact plus my own research leads me to form the opinions that I share with you.

Again I want to reiterate that nothing I may say is intended to disparage or insult you (or anyone else) personally. The issues are much bigger that either you or me. Even if we were to disagree on everything, I don't think of you as inferior in any respect. When I have those thoughts about a post, I seldom if ever reply. I hope that clears it up.

On to the issues ........

You said

..... mainline pilots are more powerful in ALPA, but I will not concede that this is unjust. We make up the majority of pilots in the union, and thus are entitled to more votes. It is akin to the system used in the House of Representatives, where the more populous states get more votes. Perhaps the executive board should have more regional members, but only if we (mainline) get enough members to appropriately represent our numbers. If that were to occur, we would still control the vote. As we represent the majority of the members, I do not feel that this would be inappropriate.

There is merit to what you say there but I think the picture you paint is incomplete and misconstrues my remarks. I said that the ALPA was not a democracy but an oligarchy. The current president of the organization once told me that --- the day would never come when the mainline carriers give up any of their power. While I believe that was an accurate assessment, that does NOT mean that it's OK as is. I do not want a system in which the small carriers lord it over the large carriers. Neither do I believe we should have more votes. That would be equally bad. What I want is a balanced system, where participation by the small carriers is meaningful and amounts to more that listening quietly then raising your right hand whenever one or more of the important MEC Chairmen thinks you should. If you, as a regional Chairman should dare to cross a Dubinsky or a Giambusso, you'd best watch your 6 closely and even if you do, your airline will pay the price of your "indiscretion".

I maintain that a "pure democracy" in which the majority can ignore, oppress or remove the rights of the minority whenever they choose cannot endure forever. The concept of a totalitarian regime is no less palatable because the dictators number more than one.

To an extent you are also correct when you point out that the system is akin to the House of Representatives. My point was that if the Government of the United States consisted only of the House, we would have another Civil War. Our Government has endured because law shares power. Our Union should be no less. Don't overlook the reality that ALPA membership today is quite different from what it was in the beginning (as is the ethnic background of our nation). Once the decision was made to admit the unwashed, the system needed modification. That has never occurred in ALPA except in the form of lip service. Maintenance of what amounts to a caste system within the union is not, in my opinion, in the best interests of anyone other than management. We are harvesting that flawed policy today.

Do not overlook that while representation in the House is based on population of each of the several States, representation in the Senate is not. In the Senate (as I am sure you know) there are 2 members from each state, regardless of population. This establishes a balance between the States. Thus CA, TX, NY and FL (as examples) are not able to dictate to the entire Nation. Even Rhode Island has a voice that must be heard. Both houses of the Congress must agree before we have legislation. Additionally, the Executive Branch has the power of the veto and finally the judicial branch, independent of the others, determines the constitutionality of legislation. As Americans, I find it difficult to comprehend why the ALPA seems to believe that a similar system is anathema.

Contrary to what you imply, the Executive Board does in fact have more "regional members" than mainline members. Nevertheless, only 3 of those mainline members can themselves outvote all other members combined. They can therefore do as they please and they often do.

The Executive Council determines constitutionality. However, the Executive Council is composed of the 4 National Officers (all of whom are mainline pilots). With the exception of 2, all other members of the EC are also mainline pilots. 4-5 of them are there by the grace of their MEC. The others are "elected" by a grouping that consists of them, created by themselves.

The fact is that the various Groups from which the Executive Council is structured are carefully created and manipulated by mainline pilots. Whenever it appears that the "structure" might afford some additional political power to the small carriers, the structure is modified to prevent that from happening. That is not a secret and it is not an accident either. It is reality.

At the National level, the ALPA utilizes a unicameral system. I think that affords the opportunity for the abuse of power. A bicameral system, with an independent equivalent of the judicial branch of government (as we have in the USA) would undoubtedly be a much better system that it would be difficult to call unfair. I concede that we will not see such a system in the ALPA in my lifetime.

Within MEC's, the true leadership, i.e., the Officers are not elected by the membership. Only voting members of the MEC (status representatives) elect them. The MEC Chairman controls the purse strings and has the power (with rare exception) to appoint all Committee members, whose budgets he also controls. Those factors result in another "interesting" political power structure within MEC's. If I had my druthers, the MEC Chairman would be elected by the membership at large and removed only by a system similar to impeachment.

The people that elect MEC Officers, only meet with each other (at the National level) when the BOD convenes every two years. Most business is conducted and most decisions are made outside of BOD meetings. As a result, the BOD is often little more than a rubber stamp for the actions of the Executive Board which in turn, is controlled by any 3 of the "big 4" men.

Following a controversial election of National Officers, we changed the voting system to avoid a repetition of the same "problem" (which IMO wasn't a problem at all). The result of that was the administration we have today. Four National Officers, each running for election without opposition and therefore, "appointed" by "acclamation". (I may be mistaken but I think that's a 1st in the history of the ALPA). Nothing less than amazing. I am sure that it has to be a "coincidence" that these 4 people just happen to come from the big-4 major airlines, i.e. NWA, DAL, UAL and AAA. Quite a show of solidarity. I can't help but wonder why there weren't 2 UAL pilots or 2 NWA pilots, etc. I am not saying there was any wrongdoing, but the appearance is less than kosher.

So much for Government of the people, by the people and for the people, ALPA style.

Please go to Part II - I apologize for being so verbose, this is a complex issue.

 

[surplus1]

Part II - Continued

To FlyDeltaJets

I do know that ALPA is about to submit a "Notice for Summary Judgement" (I believe that is the term) asking that the case be thrown out.

Standard legal practice and not at all surprising. The only thing that is surprising is that it has taken so long. If that motion is granted, it will most likely result in an appeal. Also a standard procedure. As you point out, the lawyers are paid to tell you what they did. There aren't many attorneys that will admit (in public) that they have anything but total confidence in the motions they file. That's the legal game. Remember, we don't have a real justice system, what we have is a legal system. You have spoken with "your" lawyer. Don't expect him to tell you that he thinks he will lose the case. If an ALPA lawyer does have that opinion, it is highly improbable that he would tell anyone other than the President.

I have no doubt whatever that the ALPA will not offer a "meaningful settlement" at this point in the battle. DFR lawsuits are very difficult to win. They aren't going to concede anything unless it appears they have no choice whatever. The precedent could open a Pandora's box.

Most DFR suits are decided in favor of unions. That is no secret either. Many that are won in the first round are subsequently reversed on appeal. Awards made by juries are often reduced or vacated by individual judges. None of this is new.

Before Lorenzo, every lawyer on the ALPA payroll would have sworn on his mother's grave that the CAL contract would not be abrogated by the Bankruptcy Court. ALPA litigated for years and didn't win much of anything. I doubt any lawyer in ALPA would do that today. When the Company sued ALPA and the DMEC over the open time issue, all of you thought Delta was wrong. Logic told you that you could refuse a "voluntary" provision of your CBA. ALPA defended you with vigor and the Company lost round one. On appeal, ALPA did not prevail and the injunction was granted. Efforts to overturn it also failed. Such is the legal system.

It is also well known that if you don't have a good case but you have a lot of money, outspending your opponent through a series of appeals may very well produce a victory for you. ALPA has a lot of money and will spend as much as it needs to prevent the loss of this action. The RJDC may well lose, not because the case has no merit, but because they run out of money to pursue it somewhere along the way. That strategy is also no secret and you can be very sure ALPA's lawyers have not overlooked it. Nevertheless, occasionally justice does prevail.

We will just have to wait and see how the cards are played out.

I concur that there is conflict of interest within every union. I also concur that the conflict itself is not illegal. How the union deals with that conflict and how it treats both its representational and fiduciary responsibilities is what's at issue, not the existence of conflict or the lack thereof.

I notice you claim that each bargaining unit within the ALPA represents only the respective airline. I hold that to be a popular misconception. The MEC is not a legal entity and has no legal status. It is but an internal tool of the organization that tends to facilitate whom physically does the work. There is but one collective bargaining agent. That is the ALPA. There is no contract between Delta, Inc. and the DALMEC. The parties to the contract are Delta, Inc. and the ALPA. Without the signature of the President of the ALPA, your contract is not valid, no matter who sat at the negotiating table. If your MEC (or any other) takes any action whatsoever that is not approved by the ALPA, that action is legally invalid. If your MEC does something that someone outside of ALPA thinks is wrong, they don't sue the MEC they sue the ALPA.

Obviously I know that the ALPA President just isn't going to refuse anything that the DMEC really wants. He would not survive politically if he did. Legally however, he may. In contrast the same ALPA President will not hesitate to disallow something that the CMRMEC or the EWAMEC wants or does, if the DMEC finds it objectionable. That is reality. It can also be arbitrary, unreasonable in the extreme and irrational. In law as elsewhere, might often makes right, but not always. I can only hope this will be an instance where right prevails.

While I acknowledge that it would probably be impossible here is a hypothetical for you. Let us suppose that Comair, under the auspices of ALPA, was able to negotiate and enforce a Scope clause that limited the number of 737's operated by Delta to 100, flying only on certain routes and stage lengths, unless and until Comair acquired another 100 RJ's. How would you feel about that? Would you believe that ALPA had the right to sign such a contract? Suppose that enforcement of that provision resulted in your being furloughed, would you feel you had been injured? What if you asked for the right to help determine your own fate and were summarily dismissed?

Suppose instead that Comair negotiated a provision (again under the auspices of the ALPA) that prevented Delta from adding any more 737s to the fleet unless Comair added 2 more RJs for each new 737 or equivalent. How would you feel about that? Never mind what management might or might not do. If that were ALPA's position, what would YOU do?

Yes, the RJDC case will indeed be difficult. The burden of proof is heavy. The references you selected are good ones. They are however, not the only ones. Not all DFR litigation has been found in favor of the union. While precedent is a very valuable tool in legal proceedings, it is far from being the only tool. There are a variety of cases in which the courts have ignored or reversed precedent. Rare, yes. Impossible, no.

Much evidence is available for review. The discovery process may produce more. Will the case be interesting? You bet.

If the RJDC should fail that will result if maintenance of the status quo. If it should prevail then hopefully the courts will produce a remedy that does not injure any Delta pilot and also allows the Association to continue its role of representing the interests of most airline pilots. I know that the RJDC is not trying to destroy the ALPA. All they want is a fair shake. Money is a necessary evil, but it is not the objective of the suit.

I have noted that you and several other Delta pilots have threatened that Delta will leave ALPA if the RJDC prevails. That is of course your choice, but emulation of the Canadians does not appear to me to be beneficial. To me, that's like saying that because I did not agree with the Supreme Court's decision in our recent elections, I will oppose the President, renounce my citizenship and flee to Canada. Or perhaps Martin L. King and some 20 million Americans whose ancestry happens to be African all moving to Nigeria because it took the Supreme Court 150 years to right an obvious wrong. I'm sorry if I offend you, but I think that is a very childish response. I sincerely hope that your leaders of the moment will be wiser than that. However, if you did leave under those circumstances, I would not shed a single tear.

FDJ, an "equal voice" is not what regional pilots or the pilots of other small carriers want. It is not what I would want and I do not believe it is what the RJDC wants. They want a fair voice, consistent application of the rules, the right to participate actively in decisions that directly affect their future and the right to pursue their profession without undue interference from mainline pilots. They want their right to pursue their careers to wherever they might lead (within their own airlines), without artificial restrictions and restraints unilaterally imposed by the union they have employed to represent their interests. They want those things without a lifetime of worrying about what your group may do next to advance your own career at their expense. When the "unequal" condition of their size or number, results in oppression of their rights and arbitrary dismissal of their interests just because you can, the union risks being "outside the wide range of reasonableness" and in fact behaves in an irrational and discriminatory manner. If that is not against the law, it most definitely ought to be. Like beauty, what is reasonable, what is irrational, what is oppressive and what is discrimination, rests in the eye of the beholder. Accountability is not always pleasant but it is essential. As our current President GWB often says, the price of freedom is high. Some of us are prepared to pay it.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I do know that ALPA is about to submit a "Notice for Summary Judgement" (I believe that is the term) asking that the case be thrown out.

How do you know this? What has taken ALPA so long? A MSJ is part of any defense, as much as a takeoff chacklist is part of what we do to go flying.

I just wonder why ALPA is waiting until after they are on approach to landing before calling for the before start checklist...

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Fins,

I know this because I have spoken with the attorny who wrote it. As to your question of timing, I don't have an answer. I guess the wheels of justice turn slowly!

Surplus,

Good post, lots of info for me to sift through. It is bedtime, so when I get time, I will post a response.

By the way, your apology is accepted. I probably misread your intentions with the last post. I normally don't have such thin skin, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. Your posts are respectful, I hope mine are too. They are meant to be.

Talk to ya soon (as if you had any doubt!)

 

[RJFlyer]

FDJ:

I believe we are going in circles...I think this argument is becoming redundant.

You are absolutely right, we are going in circles. I am sure I will never be able to change your mind about anything we've discussed regardless of any information I have/will post, and until you back up your statements with the facts/figures/language that I requested, you won't be too successful in changing my mind. I guess I will just have to respectfully agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

Good luck with your grievances, and I look forward to discussing the outcome of them and the RJDC suit with you in the future.

 

[RJFlyer]

73GDog:

Again I ask, who are we at war against? What country, what government.

Al Qaeda, for blowing up our buildings and citizens on our soil. The Taliban (until recently, the recognized andl legal government in Afghanistan) for knowingly and actively supporting Al Qaeda. And Afghanistan, because that is where Al Qaeda and the Taliban are/were.

Didn't you know this?

I'll have to do some research, but the last I heard, Taliban detainees were going to be reclassified to fall under the Geneva Convention, but Al Qaeda fighters were not.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Rj,

I cannot prove a negative. I stated that there is no language in our contract which prevents management from operating rjs. The rjdc says there is. I asked someone to show me such language. No one has.

In the meantime, we will agree to disagree.