The Comair strike, another perspective..

skydiverdriver

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Publisher, you sound like management. Most of us are not management, and would tend to disagree with you. We, as pilots will try to do what we can to help our brothers, because it also helps us.
 

FlyingSig

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Re: 1900 laker...

SDD says this:

A one to seven ratio would mean that seven years at Comair equals one year at Delta. It wouldn't put the top Comair guy anywhere near number seven at Delta. Try not to let anyone else fool you like that again.
but noname insists on:

There was never, NEVER, a demand for seniority on Delta's list.

You guys are supposedly on the same team.....So which is it?
 

skydiverdriver

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Sig,
I was trying to fix a mistake made by the 1900 guy. You are obviously looking for people that are lying to you, because you believe what all of the pilots in your cockpits have been telling you. I saw 1900 say that a 1 to 7 ratio means the number one guy at Comair would be number 7 at Delta. That isn't what that means. Please look at the posts in question before you start pointing fingers. Again, nobody at Comair made any suggestion about any form of integration. We only asked your guys to talk about it. Only talk. Now I see why talk frightens you, as you make up things that never were said.
 

~~~^~~~

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Flying Sig:

We know you did not have to pass a sim ride to get hired by Delta, but there has to be some basic measure of intelligence that you passed...

There was no, none, not ever, any stipulation of any type of seniority integration when the onelist PID was put forward to the ALPA Board of Directors.

Did someone dream of a one for seven ratio, date of hire, or put Connection pilots straight into the 777, probably so. I dream of Jennifer Anniston, Milla Jojovich and flying the Shuttle, however it has nothing to do with reality.

Look at the documentation and the PID filing. Ask your MEC for the documentation that some sort of seniority integration plan was proffered - when they produce nothing, you have your answer.

The sad thing is - that people like you are truly happy that there are separate lists and alter ego operations at Delta so you can feel that you are better than somebody else.

However, greater harm is being done to the pilots at Delta who are going to be furloughed, as well as those pilots at Connection who have had their careers capped by negotiations that they were not represented in and contracts which they did not get to vote on.

Any time ALPA allows alter ego airline operations - it ends up burning the union. Whether it be with E.L. Cord, Frank Lorenzo, or Delta's current managament team, it does not matter.

Read Mr. Buttrell's comments in Aviation Week. He makes it clear that the company is going to whip saw the pilots and that Delta is not going to honor scope - well let me tell you something, the CRJ700 can be a replacement for narrow body domestic flying. It has all the capability of your aircraft - except it is quieter, more fuel efficient, easier to maintain and cheaper.

So keep spreading and encouraging the lies, the career you destroy might even be your own.

Here is the link:

http://aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_comm.jsp?view=story&id=news/ccom1227.xml
 

FlyingSig

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Actually, it was just fun to see y'all get steamed up.... you guys spread false rumors, I simply get your blood boiling by directly quoting your own words and placing them in my own context (kinda like the media) Anyway...on with the debate....


Look at the documentation and the PID filing. Ask your MEC for the documentation that some sort of seniority integration plan was proffered - when they produce nothing, you have your answer.
There is where the problem lies. My MEC would not be able to provide any documention because DALPA was not involved in that issue. For the rest of the board.... although I doubt anyone is really following this conversation by this point.... PID stands for Policy Initiation Date. This is the date where ALPA would start implementing their merger policy. However there was no merger. This was determined by ALPA national in the grievance.... not to mention the corporation has not mergered (if they did then your gate agents/rampers/etc.. would all be Delta employees and not Comair employees....) Delta bought Comair, they did not merge with them, thus ALPA has no say in implementing the merger policy - their hands are tied. There is no PID.

The sad thing is - that people like you are truly happy that there are separate lists and alter ego operations at Delta so you can feel that you are better than somebody else.
No buddy, the sad thing is how clueless you really are. You are so wrapped up with this perception that your pilot group is being wronged you have isolated yourself from DALPA and ALPA national. I would love one list. I would love all Delta flying to be done by Delta pilots. However, when this quest is done by spreading lies about my pilot group I get a little soured..... this alter ego crap...you guys are a broken record.

You need to: Scope your own flying. All flying 70 seats and under should be done by DCI. This means having your own PID with ASA and combining those operations.... hmmm, how do you convince Delta to do that? I guess since you haven't figured that out you figure it's easier to sue ALPA.

Once you scope your own flying then you need to operationally integrate the airlines. If you can't convince your own union that a merger happened how are you going to convince a judge? Why are you (with all your rhetoric, I mean you as in RJDC which I assume you are a supporter morally and financially if you back up your words) not sueing Delta? Why only ALPA?

Once it is established that a merger happened then of course the ALPA merger policy shoud be used.

OR

How about this... get DALPA to help you. Intstead of shoving your opinions down our throat, try cooperation. Put it in writing that any effort directed towards onelist would not displace a single DAL pilot. Put it in writing that your beef is with Delta choosing to run a seperate airline and not ALPA or DALPA. How about treading the waters with a CoEx style flow-thru, working up to a combined Comair/ASA with a good scope clause, and finishing the work with onelist - instead of tyring to hit a home run with the first swing? Nahhh.... y'all seem to want to take your chances with a settlement from a court instead of actually making an effort to work together.


Read Mr. Buttrell's comments in Aviation Week. He makes it clear that the company is going to whip saw the pilots and that Delta is not going to honor scope - well let me tell you something, the CRJ700 can be a replacement for narrow body domestic flying.

I agree with you that the CRJ700 is a replacement for domestic narrow body...however reading the article (I read it already) I don't see where Buttrell said Delta plans on violating the PWA. Fact is DCI is not up to the allowed limits and still has room to grow. The limits by the way are higher now due to DAL meeting the excused compliance clause (35% instead of 34% for next year and up to 39% by 2004....all well within Comair and DCI growth plans)

Actually, the interesting part of the article was this quote:
In mid-December, the Connection carriers were operating at slightly below break even. Fares have been low to help stimulate demand, the executive says, and traffic is still below what it was last year at this time. "There is no overall strong demand to have any pricing power in the market place," Buttrell says.


I thought you guys were making all the money (actually, I really did) and keeping DAL out of real trouble, but it seems like you guys are not making any money either, just not bleeding as bad as mainline.

The article also mentioned how Delta must negotiate ACA flight attendant and mechanic contracts so I'm not sure how much the author really understands what he is writing about...but nontheless it did provide for an interesting read.

So go take your blodd pressure pill and have a happy new year!
 

~~~^~~~

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Flying Sig:


You write: "My MEC would not be able to provide any documention because DALPA was not involved in that issue. "

Reply: Chuck Giambusso (DALPA's Chairman) testified to the ALPA Board of Directors when the PID was considered and DALPA lobbied for the denial of the PID request. Capt. Giambusso argued that there was no operational integration between Connection and "mainline." He knowingly mislead the ALPA Board of Directors when he told them there was no provision for pilots at one carrier to hold seniority rights at the other carriers. At the time there was a side letter of agreement allowing Delta bid restricted second officers to hold seniority at Delta and Delta Connection, so that they could gain experience at Connection to meet Delta's mins.

If anyone wants the full text of Giambusso's testimony let me know and I will paste it.

You write: "THERE WAS NO MERGER"

Reply: Yes there was, and is. Your reply is the very reason that I accuse ALPA and DALPA of supporting alter ego air carriers that undermine the collective bargaining process.

Delta markets ASA services, provides ticket stock, scheduling, maintainence, management and risk management of ASA. ASA is insured as "Delta Air Lines, Inc." along with the other ownership, financing and leasing arrangements that do not specify the exclusive nature, or rights, of ASA as a separate corporate entity.

More importantly, ask my passengers if they know who Atlantic Southeast Airlines is - they all believe they are on Delta and they see no difference between my airplane and yours.

We ARE merged - ALPA's failure to recognize this and fight to end alter ego divisions in our collective bargaining process harms you and me.

You Write: "How about treading the waters with a CoEx style flow-thru"

Reply: Do you mean the flow through that Continental's management unilaterally cancelled after pilots had spent years waiting for the "real" job?

I consider my job to be real. ASA provides the same revenue seat miles you do.


You write: "I thought you guys were making all the money (actually, I really did)"

Reply: Who knows? All of our financial data is consolidated into DAL's financial reports. It is impossible to separate ASA's performance - because ownership equity in ASA trades as DAL.

OK - here is the problem. DCI is currently at 35% to 37% of total system block hours. By the end of 2002 we will be further over the limit - what then?

With regards to your scope suggestion - we tried to scope flying for ASA and ALPA refused to allow ASA's MEC to negotiate with Delta. Unless ASA can negotiate with Delta, there is no way to accomplish what you suggest. (ALPA was afraid we would scope 105 seats and down {the BAe 146 contract 96 scope - which is exactly what we had in mind} ) Since 105 seats and down would interefere with DALPA, ALPA (our sole bargaining agent) wrote a real nasty letter to Delta and our MEC.

We tried to out scope your scope - ALPA would not let it happen. At any rate everyone trying to scope eachother out is not unity. We need inclusive scope - all Delta flying by Delta pilots.

Your reasoned response is appreciated.
 
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1900laker

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You Write: "How about treading the waters with a CoEx style flow-thru"

Reply: Do you mean the flow through that Continental's management unilaterally cancelled after pilots had spent years waiting for the "real" job?




I thought the flow-thru is still in effect. Didn't they cancel the "cancellation". I am curious as I have several friends there. I know there have been several CAL pilots that were furloughed flow-back to COEX. So what is the deal?
 

skydiverdriver

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Sig,
I'm not angry at you, and I think we are actually getting somewhere. Every time you write something, you say things that are so off base that it's very easy for me to correct you. Then after I correct you, you come up with something else, because you know I'm correct. Perhaps you are just making things up to get us to correct you, but that's fine because others may learn something too.

The reason the RJDC is suing ALPA, is because they broke the law and their own charter. Nobody is suing Delta because they did not break the law, or their own charter. Delta Airlines is a business that is doing it's best to make money. ALPA is a union that should be treating ALL of it's members equally. Since it is not, they are being sued. I'm not sure why you have such a great misunderstanding of the issues, but it does help me to understand why so many Delta pilots are misinformed on these issues. I would hope that if you learned something here, you might pass it on to your fellows at work, but somehow I don't think that is happening. Either ALPA broke the law, or they didn't. They either have a conflict of interest, or they don't. That is what a judge will decide. Thanks for your consideration.
 

FlyingSig

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I don't know how well reasoned this is since I'm on the road and tired from a short overnight in MKE last night, but I'll give it a go...

Delta markets ASA services, provides ticket stock, scheduling, maintainence, management and risk management of ASA. ASA is insured as "Delta Air Lines, Inc." along with the other ownership, financing and leasing arrangements that do not specify the exclusive nature, or rights, of ASA as a separate corporate entity.
SkyWest also uses Delta ticket stock and provides leasing arrangements for SkyWest RJ's....Delta doesn't own SkyWest.

Delta provides ACA and American Eagle scheduling and management for the markets ACA and Eagle does for Delta. Delta doesn't own ACA, nor do they own Eagle.

So given that logic SkyWest, ACA, and American Eagle should also be merged into Delta.

But SkyWest isn't an ALPA carrier, so how do you treat their pilots in regards to a PID?

The only people saying that there was a merger are the plantiffs in a multimillion dollar gold-digging lawsuit. Not only does ALPA say there was no merger....but the actual COMPANY says there was no merger. Again (from my last post), if there was a merger, why can't gate agents, schedulers, dispatchers, etc... bid mainline positons? Why can't middle managers go get a job at the G.O. and keep all seniority? Answer: Because the companies weren't merged. Delta Holdings which also owns Delta Air Lines bought ASA & Comair. Yes, it's a paper trail, but yes they are being run as seperate companies that all report to one board of directors. You're suing the wrong team....even getting ALPA to tell Delta there was a merger won't get Delta to merge the companies. All this time and money wasted on the wrong target.....

More importantly, ask my passengers if they know who Atlantic Southeast Airlines is - they all believe they are on Delta and they see no difference between my airplane and yours.
Everytime I fly on ASA the gate agents, flight attendants, and pilots all announce that you are flying ASA...but you're right, most pax are clueless. They also think MD88's are small, tickets are too expensive for a $200 transcon roundtrip, and think they should be treated better than the first class businessperson who paid $1500 for the same flight. Sounds like a personal probelm though. I never really cared that my CoEx pax thought they were on a Continental flight (and we had those that thought they were on a NWA and AmWest flights too because that's what their ticket stock said and also what the gate agent announced) Air France pax also travel on ASA....again, what's the point?

Do you mean the flow through that Continental's management unilaterally cancelled after pilots had spent years waiting for the "real" job?
Having spent a few years there waiting to flow thru OR for anybody to call me with an offer for a "real job" that didn't start at $13.25 like CoEx did at the time....the flow thru is still there and hasn't been unilaterally cancelled. If it had then CAL would have hundreds more furloughed because there would have been no flow back. Yes, a full IPO would have cancelled the agreement, however that's what was negotiated into the flow-thru. At the time it was written all the majors were buying into the regionals instead of talking of spinning them off so I don't think a lot of thought was put into that section.... thus my suggestion. You all have now had the opportunity to see how a flow thru would work in a downturn and have the advantage of being able to fix those problems in negotiations.

I consider my job to be real. ASA provides the same revenue seat miles you do.
Again, sounds like a personal issue. Do you get upset when pax call your airplane little or a puddle jumper? But you're preachin' to the choir....I know you work harder than I do for less money. So I'm a bad guy for working for an airline with better pay/work rules than you?

OK - here is the problem. DCI is currently at 35% to 37% of total system block hours. By the end of 2002 we will be further over the limit - what then?
Where did you get those numbers? They aren't published anywhere on the DeltaNet and as far as I have been told DCI is about 30-32%

ALPA refused to allow ASA's MEC to negotiate with Delta. Unless ASA can negotiate with Delta, there is no way to accomplish what you suggest. (ALPA was afraid we would scope 105 seats and down {the BAe 146 contract 96 scope - which is exactly what we had in mind} ) Since 105 seats and down would interefere with DALPA, ALPA (our sole bargaining agent) wrote a real nasty letter to Delta and our MEC.
So what you're saying is you bit the hand that can help you and you still expect them to give you the world with a smile? Gee, what would've happened if you wrote ALPA and DALPA and said you only want to scope all flying 70 seats and under? Maybe that nasty letter wouldn't have been written. By Delta I also am assuming you are talking about DALPA because nobody can stop you from negotiating with your own company (and yes, I DO agree Leo controlls the purse strings for DCI)

We need inclusive scope - all Delta flying by Delta pilots.
Again I agree. But you're not a Delta pilot...you work for Delta Connection, Inc. I have no issues with you becoming a Delta pilot as long its on terms both sides can agree to (ie a staple). As I have been saying all along however, you can't expect a lot of help getting you to attain this goal by making us out to be the villians (along with suing us).

I saw on another post you're DFW based... if you ever want to discuss this over a beer I'd be happy to. While many of your posts have been factually incorrect, your last post was well thought out - just a differant opinion - which is what makes debate enjoyable. I'm sure we'll never change each others opinions but hey, a beers a beer.
 

skydiverdriver

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Again, sig, nobody is suing YOU! Unless when you say us, you also mean all of the other pilots who are in ALPA, including the regional guys. Nobody is suing Delta, or Delta;'s alpa, they are suing ALPA national, who broke the law.
 

~~~^~~~

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Sig:

You are the master at quotes - I need to figure out how to do that.

You write that middle managers at ASA don't hold their Delta seniority. WOW, thanks for throwing me that softball. Actually most of our middle manager's ID's reflect seniority that was YEARS before ASA was even founded. We make a big deal about Skip Barnette not giving up his Delta perks, including retirement, while he preaches to us that we do not need retirement.

Further the other air carriers you mentioned are not insured under DAL's policy (as ASA and Comair are) and the financing is quite different. Neither Skywest, nor ACA, report their results under DAL's ticker - as you know ASA and Comairs results are not published separately.

However, I believe it is to your detriement that you choose to develop differences, instead of common ground. The point of my post is that my CRJ is competition to your MD88. Your point that ACA and Skywest are competition to my RJ is very true and well taken.

What we need to do is bring all pilots performing Delta flying together. Such a movement would have to start with the DAL MEC since you guys are the 900 lb gorilla. The problem is that DALPA would rather try to control the threat externally through illegal scope, than they would control the competition by putting us on one list.

Once a onelist push started, Skywest would organize under ALPA quickly rather than be left out in the cold.

My 2 cents (although it means nothing) would be DOH for the Connection guys then staple that on the bottom of the DAL list, with darn good base and seat protections. Initially this could be cost neutral to Delta since we would continue working under our current agreements until C2K comes up for re-negotiation.

As far as a money grabbing lawsuit - the issue has never been money. Actual damages are in excess of $600,000,000.00 according to the University of Cincinnatti's economics department. However, the Comair plaintiffs have agreed to waive all damages, if ALPA will obey the Constitution and Bylaws and waive the predatory scope they imposed on Connection pilots.

It took fourteen years for the Pan Am plaintiffs to get their money out of ALPA - we just want our career expectations restored - the monetary component is only there to force ALPA to act in good faith.

As you know I do not make much money, but I send the RJDC every extra penny. Why? Because ALPA is very powerful and no matter where I fly at ALPA has a lot of control over my career. It benefits both of us for ALPA to follow its Constitution and Bylaws, as well as the laws of our nation.

The RJDC is not trying to destroy ALPA, rather, they are the only force working to repair the union and bring pilots together.

Regards,
~~~^~~~~
 

FlyingSig

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You are the master at quotes - I need to figure out how to do that.
Put the word "quote" in brackets [ ] prior to the part you want to quote and after the part you want to quote put "/quote" in brackets as well....

More debate later.... got family over so my computer time is limited ;)
 

Andy Neill

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You mean like this?
Put the word "quote" in brackets [ ] prior to the part you want to quote and after the part you want to quote put "/quote" in brackets as well....
I think I get it now. Thanks.
 
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