The Comair strike, another perspective..

skydiverdriver

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Mr Snow,
You are entitled to your opinion, but don't worry, I won't call you names for expressing it. Good luck to you sir.
 

skydiverdriver

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Thanks rufus, I did vote no, just like you did.

Mr Sig,
I apologise if I was wrong with the two things I said about Delta pilots. I just wonder why you dont' try to answer some of the other things I talk about. I did not try to lie, I was just spreading rumors, which is almost as bad. Good luck to you, and I sincerely hope you don't get furloughed.
 

1900laker

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Merry X-mas everyone,

I talked to my dad this morning (a senior DAL pilot), and mentioned some of the stuff I have been reading on this board. He put some things in perspective about hardtimes and the airlines. Here is what he explained regarding some of the comments made recently on this board and specifically in the COMAIR thread.


When he was hired by Delta in late 1973, about a three months later, he was informed that 400 pilots were to be furloughed or busted down to the ramp to be baggage handlers. It turned out to be 200, which put him 5 away from the bottom in Houston, barely clinging to a B727 panel seat. That is where he sat for 6 years. And he was still thankful to have a job. There were those that only made it back much later, after years of scrabbling to make ends meet. So when you call a guy at the end of a long career that started in such a fashion "greedy", it really strikes the wrong chord. Keep in mind that for the guys retiring soon, their retirement is based on the best 3 of their last 10 years. This affects the amount of money they will be receiving for the rest of their lives, not just a couple years till you move up to the next seat. These are also pilots who have spent decades in the industry, fighting alongside DALPA for better wages and working conditions which impact the entire industry.

There is no doubt that Mainline and Express carriers benefit from a Synergistic relationship with each other. But included in that is the often forgotten concept that business is business. Pilots are often so caught up in casting stones at one another for lack of support that they miss the bigger picture. COMAIR and ASA are competitors! It's true. Every mainline/express connection creates a microcosm like market economy. The whole Delta conglomerate competes with the rest of the market as a whole, but within the conglomerate it has pieces that are used to compete with one another, to keep the cost down for the mainline operation. So when COMAIR/ASA guys point fingers at each other, keep in mind you are still competitors of a sort within your Delta economy. Oh and I didn't forget Skywest or ACJet. They are your "competitors" also.

He also said you need two things going for you if you want to be an airline pilot:

1. A strong union
2. Good common sense, so you can balance out many of the socialist that are present in your strong union.

And finally, so many things are thrust upon the unions which are results of actions taken by the companies. Very often, the actions by the company are such (and maybe designed this way) that the result will be two union groups pitted against each other. Never forger that fact.

But hey, at the end of the day, even though we fight over all this gravy, lets first be thankful of the food we have to put it on.

Happy Holidays
 

TurboS7

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Nice job. The thing about the unions is so true, but no matter what part of the fence you fall on you must be involved to provide the balance needed for all to prosper.
 

FlyingSig

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Believe it or not, I'm actually enjoying this conversation. I suppose however Mr. Noname, that you subscribe to the same theory of posting as SDD, that is of spreading lies but calling them rumors. So let's take a look:




~~~^~~~ said:
Actually, Skydiverdriver said just about exactly what one of Delta's former Chief Pilots told me, that DALPA reached too far with the last contract
Funny, isn't that exactly what Randy Rademaker said about the Comair contract? If I asked Mr. Osmundson his opinion should I take it as fact? Fact is Delta had negotiators too and the company signed off on the working agreement. If an employee contract would cause a company to loose money, then the management of that company should be held responsible by the BOD and the shareholders to change that. Fact is also that Fred Reid is also on record saying that the payrates were deserved.


If given the choice between rediculous pay rates ($275+ an hour on the smallest equipment DL operates @ 12 years - 737 Capt) or job security - I will take job security.
Here's where you start to cross that lie/viscious rumor line.... Let's see, a Delta 777 Captain currently makes $280.07/hr , yet you assert that the smallest category captain makes $275. That is a lie. A 737 Captian currently makes $161.08/hr. In 2005 at the end of the agreement, that 737 Captain will make $206.79 , nowhere near your supposed pay rates. But one can dream right?

As far as your job security...we thought we had negotiated that. When you have a no furlough clause that states "circumstances which the company does not have control shall not include the financial state of the company or the state of the economy" you pretty much think you have your bases covered. Hense the grievance that has been filed.

"All Delta flying performed by Delta pilots" is a worthy goal. Instead of furloughs and scope we could be writing about CRJ900's and growth - I'd be sitting in the right seat, you would be in the left.
I agree this is indeed a worthy goal. I am not opposed to this concept at all. I would say however the first thing that needs to be accomplished is that the wholy owned DCI needs to scope out all 70 seat and under flying to prevent your flying from being farmed out to ACA, Eagle, & SkyWest.

When you say "what DALPA did", just what do you mean? ALPA national is who shot down your request. DALPA opinion was that any conversation about intergration should not include anything to do with date of hire. While the Comair/ASA MEC's did not come out and say that phrase the fact of the matter is when you apply ALPA's merger & frag. policy, the possibility exists that such a thing may happen. Why didn't the Comair MEC come out and say any integration talks would be staple only? They didn't because they were looking out for their pilots, DALPA was simply doing the same.

The DALPA MEC offered to begin discussions about a flow-thru. Comair MEC declined... Why should it be up to DALPA to follow up anymore? Out of the kindness of our hearts so I can move backwards on my list? Thanks anyway....


However, Bill Buergey, your MEC Chairman says he is against any type of Onelist because there would be no place for his squadron mates to....
Here we go again with the lies.... other than reading this on the internet, just where has this been published? I have never seen ANY official position concerning this. But it sure makes your post sound juicy huh? A friend of a friend heard from a buddy in the crew room that flew with......


And then there is scope. In ALPA pilots have the right to vote on contracts that affect their pay and working conditions. Thanks to scope I will be a First Officer for a long, long, time. However, I never was given the opportunity vote on the contract ALPA negotiated with my employer that wrecked my upgrade opportunities.
The DALPA MEC negotiated a deffinition of the flying that would be done by Delta pilots. I suggest in your next contract you do the same. Also, I have the feeling that I'll be an F/O a hell of a lot longer then you will be DUE TO OUR SCOPE CLAUSE and the liberal expansion of DCI.

As individuals I like many Delta pilots and consider them friends; as a group within ALPA I feel you guys are predatory, completely egocentric, arrogant without justification and presently are sucking the life blood out of the company that I enjoy working for.
On this I agree. If all I knew about Comair pilots was what I read on the internet I wouldn't give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** what happened to your pilot group. But because I have many friends that fly at Comair, I know that these opinions are simply politics of the MEC and a few brainwashed followers who, no matter how much facts are placed in front of them, refuse to find a solution that is anything other than 100% their opinion.

Right now your MEC is trying to negotiate furlough protection - using my equipment without my participation - if your furlough protection comes at the expense of Connection pilots you have no idea how ugly this will be.
Last I heard was of the possibility of a preferential interview. You would be opposed to furloughed pilots getting hired on the bottom of your list? Man...talk about bitterness.

There are many folks like me who are quietly seething over what your union has done to us.
Time to take a blood pressure pill and move on.... there's more to life than your job.

Merry Christmas!
 

snowback

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1900Laker,

Very nice. I'm probably biased, but I think DAL is the best airline in the country to be working for. Tell your Father that I've been with Delta only 5 years and I appreciate all the hard work the senior guys have done in the past to get us to the level we are now.
 

goldentrout

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Here's an idea for the new year.

Yes, the senior guys have paid their dues...OK, fine.

How about we use 9/11 to design a new salary structure so that when hard times come, thousands of people...usually the junior folks who can least afford it, don't have to lose their jobs.

The idea is simple. A base salary that is not outrageous, and a bonus structure based on the performance of the company. If the company makes billions, we all share in the wealth. If the company loses millions, we all share in the pain...but keep our jobs.

The current system just pits the "haves" against the "have-nots."

I've already heard the argument that "management will skew the numbers to keep the bonuses down." That can be overcome by smart people writing certain provisions into our contracts, and that's not a good enough reason to reject outright the bonus idea.

If we're really a brotherhood, then the above idea seems to be a good option. Unfortunately, most of what I saw post 9/11 was that brotherhood stopped at people's pocketbook.

For the good of all pilots in the future, it seems like now might be a good time to consider a paradigm shift on the salary structure issue.
 

Sarguy

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Too bad your Dad wasn't one of the guys throwing bags on the ramp. I rode the jumpseat with a sr DAL captain who was and he had a totally different perspective about things. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that they eat their own. Regarding the poor captain "scrimping for retirement in the next few years?" Just how many FA's was this man married too? Based on your payrates, if a sr DAL pilot doesn't have quite a nice little nest egg built up by now a couple of years of penny pinching ain't going to help.
 

skydiverdriver

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Mr sig,
The reason the Comair MEC did not come to them with a staple on only is because that is not how negotiations are started. Just as Delta's MEC did not go to Delta management with their bottom line offer, we could not start that way either. We only asked you to talk about it, just to talk. We probably would have been happy with a staple on, perhaps with DOH furlough protection. Then much less of your Delta pilots would now be on the street. However, your group (and other airlines who made up the group who turned us down), wouldn't even talk about it. That's all we wanted, a chance to TALK. Nothing else, just talk. Why is that so frightening? Now we had to take ALPA to court, and a judge will decide. Either they broke the law and their own charter, or they didn't. All of the other arguements are meaningless. They either broke the law or they didn't, that is the only question.
 

ifly4food

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Morning Wood said:
"Dubbya the Unionbuster"? I wonder if you remember who was in the White House when the American/APA showdown happened? I don't recall ANY unions being busted since George W. took office. All I've seen are unions (with the
exception of the Comair pilots) receving "industry leading" raises.
Well, I do remember who was in office (thanks for the smart remark), a union sympathetic president... and they still got nailed.

As for Dubbya not busting unions, let's see... Allowed Comair to strike, openly stated in public that he would prevent the Delta pilots from striking (and at that point eliminating all bargaining power of the pilot group), and now stating that he would stop the UAL mechs from striking.
I voted for Dubbya, because he was better than the alternative, but on interfering in union issues to favor management, he's 1-3.
 

~~~^~~~

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Flying Sig:

Here is the compensation section of your current contract taken from DALPA's own web site. I would like you to retract your allegation that I was lying about the following:

B-777-200IGW International$265.00$297.34$325.47$347.1431.00%
B-777-200IGW Domestic$258.11$285.34$313.47$335.1429.84%
MD-11 International$238.56$289.76$317.14$338.2241.78%
MD-11 Domestic$230.42$277.76$305.14326.2241.58%
B-767-400ER International$250.69$281.74$308.32$328.7831.15%
B-767-400ER Domestic$243.80$269.74$296.32$316.7829.93%
L-1011-500 International$234.80$281.33$307.86$328.2939.82%
L-1011-500 Domestic$223.32$269.33$295.86$316.2941.63%
L-1011-100 International$225.33$275.28$310.21$321.1742.53%
L-1011-100 Domestic$218.23$263.28$289.21$309.1741.67%
B-767-300ER International $213.74$260.27$284.70$303.5042.00%
B-767-300ER Domestic$205.60$248.27$272,70$291.5041.78%
B-767-300$203.25$245.48$269.63$288.2241.81%
B-767-200$201.94$243.92$267.91$286.3941.82%
B-757$198.14$239.41$262.95$281.0741.86%
B-737NG$201.65$232.59$255.45$273.0635.41%
B-727$183.34$221.83$243.61$260.3842.02%
MD-90$175.23$221.83$243.61$260.3848.59%
MD-88$175.00$221.83$243.61$260.3848.79%
B-737-300G$183.87$212.43$233.27$249.3235.60%
B-737-300$172.51$208.96$229.46$245.2442.16%
B-737-200$171.95$208.30$228.73$244.4642.17%

Notes:
New rates retroactive to 5/2/00
Table reflects 12-year Captain rates
Three-year contract
Sunshine Side Letter of Agreement (SLOA) eliminated
All rates reflect half day/half night
$12 per hour International override included where applicable
One rate of pay for B-737-800/700/600
3% override for all FAA type-rated First Officers on all ocean
crossings
Substantial pay increase for new-hire/first year pay

*********************************************************

Who's telling the truth? The 737 NG will be all that remains in five years. Twelve year Capt rate is $273.06. Plus the night over ride, I'd say my $275.000 a year figure may have been conservative....
 
Last edited:

Mr. Irrelevant

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In regards to Goldentrout's post I agree. However this is already happening at Southwest. The old board had an argument or two (or three or four) on this subject with most against the concept. LUV uses a profit-sharing to augment the base salaries and their last contract had options that seem to have greatly benifitted at least the senior pilots. Apparently their next contract may not have the options included. The contract also uses a generous 401k match instead of a pension plan so your retirement is building over time not just due to some final three year average (I know this varies based on company, it's just an example). Not working there I can't say what the inside view on continuing that type of payment structure is. Personally I'd love to see that continue since I'd like to work there in the future.

The relationship between the pilots and the management at the other majors is probably too poor to do something like that. Unfortunately under the current pay structures the upper-level management benefits tremendously in the value of their own options by keeping the salaries of their employees low. I don't believe it adds anything to the bottom line from either a motivational standpoint for employees or a cost-control standpoint in negotiations. Seem like it costs the airline management alot of money to negotiate those types of contracts. I'm rambling now. Sorry. Enjoyed your post. Later.


Mr. Irrelevant
 

1900laker

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SARGUY,

First of all, Don't confuse bitterness with the truth. The DALPA pilot group has fought long and hard in the past to fight during contract time for furlough protection, fight against B and C scales, better starting pay, etc. If this guy that you are referring to seems to think that is eating their own, I have to believe his is still bitter over his situation long ago. I am so very glad to know that a former military person like yourself, would wish upon a former A-4 pilot, who flew 2 tours in Vietnam with 250 combat missions, that he would have had to bust bags on the ramp. That is just great to wish upon anybody isn't it? And yes I can talk, because I spent quite a few years in myself. What does that say about your character?

And I can tell you that just depending on a few small differences in how those last 3 years end up, it can have the effect of $30 - $40K per year in retirement, FOR THE REST OF THE RETIREES LIFE. That is not small potatoes my friend. And that was from a man who only had 1 marriage for 30 someodd years.

All that said, my Dad paid strike assesments for numerous strikes over the years, and contributes to the furloughed pilots relief fund now. Another position he has been adamant about for years is that the Express (Orlando) operation needs to be eliminated or brought up to mainline rates. He also believes that there should be onelist for DAL/COMAIR/ASA so that they are all Delta jobs, and so your union groups can finally work together in a common cause to secure better wages/working conditions/retirements from the Parent company for everyone/across the board (SO MUCH FOR EATING THEIR OWN). He might have changed his thinking after the COMAIR MEC tried to do an endrun around the the DALPA MEC straight to ALPA national to propose a 1 for 7 merge of seniority list, meaning the number 1 guy at COMAIR would become number 7 on the DAL seniority list and so on.... Do you really think that is FAIR.

I suggest you go ride some more DAL jumpseats to get a better perspective on what is being said by the majority.
 

~~~^~~~

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1900 Guy,

Sounds like your Dad is a real good guy and I agree with 90% of your post.

However, you are very wrong about the onelist proposal from the Comair MEC. The document is called a request for a "Policy Implementation Date" (or PID) under ALPA's merger and fragmentation policy found in the Constitution and Bylaws of the union.

There is nothing in the PID that addresses how a merger would take place. The responsibility to determine how the merger is done is left up to the procedures in the Constitution and Bylaws.

These documents are available for your review on the RJDC web site and you can write the RJDC for any additional documentation you would like to review to learn the truth.

There was never, NEVER, a demand for seniority on Delta's list. Candidly most Comair and ASA pilots would have been grateful for a staple to avoid the alter ego mess that we have at our carriers right now.

Going into Delta's 2000 contract negotiations the Delta MEC wanted to rally the troops to support their negotiating agenda. The Delta MEC and some Delta pilots promoted this lie, that Comair pilots wanted date of hire at DAL. This of course scared and angered the Delat pilots who turned to their MEC for help.

It was an unfortunate lie for the damage that has been done. The PID was the right "legal" thing to do under the union's Constitution and Bylaws. Having four alter ego Delta carriers on the property harms all pilots. The mainline pilots in particular, as they are being furloughed and RJ's are filling the need for narrowbody domestic capacity.

When you hear this lie about seniority for Connection pilots ask the person telling you this story to show you something in writing... nothing exists! However, I have told you were you can go to learn the truth for yourself.
 

1900laker

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Fair enough,

I have to admit all I knew is what I was told, and subject to being wrong without written proof. Humorous timeout: (But hey, isn't that part of what we love about our job; being able to drive the rumor mill while in the cockpit on that 3 hour leg flight :) .

But seriously, I think that ALL of the Delta team is made up of good companies and good people. Maybe a little higher standard than some other places out there. I think it would be great if someday you were one pilot group (which could very well happen in post 9/11 times), because you as a group would be a lot more powerful and able to correct some of the wrong policies of the company, while at the same time second to none (in my opinion) in terms of the total pilot group being most efficient, well trained, etc. I am biased as h_e_ll though being a son of a Delta pilot, having every morsel put on my plate as a kid by Delta Airlines. I know that there are those out there who think they are above the rest, but I have jumpseated with MANY other airlines and still in my biased opinion, there are less at Delta and its connections.

Someday, I hope to join part of the team, and even though my Dad will retire next October at age 60, I will continue my interest in the Delta team.

And keep remembering that it is discussions like these that keep improving our unions, through exchange of ideas. This is what the management of the parent companies hate the most: that we as pilots will usually find some middle ground where we can rally in force. Sounds a little like the Scottish Wallace and clan against English King Longshanks, but it's true.:D

Later
 

FlyingSig

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I'd love to know where on the DALPA site you got the info. What you posted looks like what's called a negotiotors notepad which was done during contract negotiations and is not the contract. I looked on the public side of the dalpa site and could not find that anywhere. It is also not in the members only section. I know how to cut and paste too, so for the board's info...here is cut and paste from our actual contract which is actually located on dalpa.com for members:

For simplicity, I only copied the 12 year rates for Capts

3. Effective May 1, 2001:
CAPTAIN Effective May 1, 2001
Aircraft Model Year of Service 12
B-777-200IGW 280.07
MD-11 267.14
B-767-400ER 264.54
L-1011-250/500 260.21
L-1011-1 253.18
B-767-300ER 234.42
B-767-300 234.42
B-767-200 234.42
B-757 234.42
B-737-800 224.80
B-727 213.01
MD-90 213.01
MD-88 208.01
B-737-300G 202.27
B-737-300 202.27
DLX (B-737-700) 178.89
DLX (B-737-200) 161.08



And the tail end:


CAPTAIN Effective May 1, 2004
Aircraft Model Year of Service 12
B-777-200IGW 319.61
MD-11 304.86
B-767-400ER 301.89
L-1011-250/500 296.94
L-1011-1 288.92
B-767-300ER 267.52
B-767-300 267.52
B-767-200 267.52
B-757 267.52
B-737-800 256.53
B-727 243.08
MD-90 243.08
MD-88 237.37
B-737-300G 230.82
B-737-300 230.82
DLX (B-737-700) 229.67
DLX (B-737-200) 206.79




As you can see if you bothered to post the truth, your pay rates do not exist. As you can see the -700 does not pay a common rate as the -800 (which is a larger category than the MD88/90 and 727). Again you lie to try to make a false point. Maybe if I post that Comair pilots make $36/hr on the 18 year scale and say I got it off the Comair site everybody will think I'm credible....

As for the -800's being the only thing left in 2005....ok, show me that in writing too. (Why did they negotiate a -700 scale for an airplane that hasn't been ordered if they don't plan on getting them?)
 

skydiverdriver

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1900 laker...

A 1 to 7 ratio does NOT mean the number one Comair pilot becomes number seven at Delta. If someone told you this, I think they were trying to spread a rumor to make you angry. A one to seven ratio would mean that seven years at Comair equals one year at Delta. It wouldn't put the top Comair guy anywhere near number seven at Delta. Try not to let anyone else fool you like that again.
 

1900laker

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SDD,

Well I wasn't angry when I was told that, but utterly amazed. Again it was all through the rumor mill. But the way it was explained was that it was if it were a merger of companies and not an aquisition of one by another. Put that way, I think they were trying to say that since there are roughly 7 times as many Delta pilots as Comair pilots, in order to merge the list as if the two groups were on exactly the same footing/seniority, you would have to merge the two list so that the top Comair guy would now be number 7 on the seniority list at Delta and the bottom comair guy would be at the bottom of the Delta list. To go further, the number 2 guy would be 14, the number 3 would become 21 and so on. I think this has been done during a merger in the past between two other companies (not sure who or when, but it was discussed). This was all over 8 months ago, so my memory is vague. But I got the point: I'll shut up now.
 

~~~^~~~

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1900 I know you got the point, but just for clarification. If the PID had been accepted by ALPA, then ALPA would implement the merger in such a way that no pilot had an unfair advantage.

In the past ALPA has used two tools to integrate seniority lists. (1) They used paychecks - if you made $50,000 last year you would be integrated into a position that paid a similar amount of money - or (2) the lists were merged by equipment - if you flew a 737 last year you would remain on the 737.

Either way you cut it, by pay, or equipment, the Comair and ASA pilots would have been stapled to the bottom of the DAL list.
 

publisher

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Enough is enough

Like beating a dead horse, this ride is nowhere. The fact of the matter is that this whole thing has little to do with pilots. There are a bunch of political, business, and market elements involved in this area that impact the decision making process. I do not think that the pilot corps at any of these carriers are really asked much about these things.

These are not pilot issues at all. They remind me of a post on the old board suggesting that management was bad because they were trying to eliminate money losing routes which reduced the flying.

Comair just proved to Delta that they should never have bought it and that they would not be held hostage by one of their commuters again. I know Continental got that message. This action had a tremendous effect on the industry and regionals. It actually meant that the regionals have a future. The mainlines will not buy them and will spread the flying so there is not a dominant supplier.
 
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