SWA LGA Captain Fired

[Dan Roman]

The fact that they become public in any event is a disgrace.

We have all learned a lot from accident reports, they are a great learning tool. So it seems to me it would be a bigger mistake not to let all airline pilots in on what happened. I'm guessing your disgust is how the media will handle the info and twist it into a story.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Not true. There was no intent to cause harm. Be careful what you are promoting . . . . It's a slippry slope.

Concur with Ty. In the US, you have to have criminal intent (or negligence so gross as to have criminality inferred, which is uncommon in these cases) to be charged in criminal court. That doesn't mean you can't be held civilly responsible for your actions; just not criminally. And in our CBA (as I presume in most pilot groups'), we are indemnified by the company for such consequences. (Except, of course, in the cases of actual criminality or gross negligence.) That means that even if a assenger sued the pilot herself personally, the company would be obligated to defend her and to pay any damage awards.

This is not true in all other countries, however. In France, for instance, they can and have tried, convicted, and imprisoned pilots for accidents wth fatalities, even when there was multiple causal factors. Most other western nations think this is crap, however, and does nothing to promote or improve safety.

Bubba

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Was the captain from the Chicago and Burbank overruns fired?

Chicago and Burbank were accidents......this was willful disregard of procedures.....a conscious choice.

I shouldn't speculate though until the investigation is complete. Did the FAA revoke her license or give a 709 ride? Good question which may leave her high and dry for the company having no choice.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Accidents and willful disregard for procedures are not mutually exclusive.

 

[scarlet]

WE do know over 2 minutes and not one PA from the flight deck. No checklist run, as spoilers still deployed during the whole evacuation process.

GO AROUND if not stable or you don't like it....PRIVATE PILOT 101 !! She needs to be gone from just some of the reports from FO that have flown with her!

 

[igneousy2]

Wrong. Talk to a lawyer. You may learn something.

I have...many times...
A. NOTIFICATION OF LOCAL COUNCIL PRIOR TO FILING GRIEVANCES

SOURCE ‑ Board 1970
No member of ALPA shall file a grievance without first contacting his Local Executive Council representative, giving a brief and concise resume of what such grievance is about and receiving the recommendations of such Local Executive Council representative which shall be in an advisory capacity only, providing that this policy shall be waived where Employment Agreement grievance section time limits are involved for the filing of such grievances wherein the member grieving is overrunning said time limits.

The above is from the ALPA policy manual...

This is from an AFL/CIO FAQ...

QWhat if a worker' s complaint is not a valid grievance?ADiplomatically explain why to the worker. And, of course, you will have explored all the other ways of solving the worker's problem. Most workers can understand how everyone in the union loses if it backs a groundless complaint. However, a worker may decide on their own that a grievance needs to be filed. In such cases, the steward needs to be very careful so as to avoid DFR charges.

I think what you are mixing up is what happens practically and what happens legally. What practically happens is your "representative" settles the grievance and then calls you up and says...hey this is what we got at the settlement hearing...it is still the pilots perogative to say no, that isn't good enough. ​

It is rare for a grievance chairman to say that a grievance is without merit and then for a pilot to push the issue with the company anyway. Like I said, it would be tough to go against the company lawyer and the negotiating committee chairman testifying against your grievance. ​

It's very possible that SWAPA acts differently, but if the pilot wants to proceed and SWAPA does not, then they better be right because if they are found wrong in the DFR suit they will be made to pay the damages. It's much easier to just let the grievance go through during the next system board.​

 

[PCL_128]

SOURCE ‑ Board 1970
No member of ALPA shall file a grievance without first contacting his Local Executive Council representative, giving a brief and concise resume of what such grievance is about and receiving the recommendations of such Local Executive Council representative which shall be in an advisory capacity only, providing that this policy shall be waived where Employment Agreement grievance section time limits are involved for the filing of such grievances wherein the member grieving is overrunning said time limits.

The above is from the ALPA policy manual...

The above section regards Local Council notification. Local Councils don't control the grievance process, the MEC does. Notifying the Local Council is a completely separate issue, and different MECs handle the grievance structure in different ways. At UAL, Local Councils are heavily involved in the grievance process, for example, while at ATN, they're basically not involved at all after the initial meeting with the Chief Pilot. It just depends on how the MEC structures it. Either way, though, the pilot doesn't get to usurp the union's decision on whether to file a grievance. ALPA has denied access to the grievance process to pilots in the past, based on their judgment that if the pilot won his case, it would be highly detrimental to the rest of the pilot group. Besides that sort of situation, ALPA will usually provide access, even if they don't try the pilot's case (the pilot would have try his own case or hire his own lawyer then), but they are under no legal obligation to do so.

This is from an AFL/CIO FAQ...

QWhat if a worker' s complaint is not a valid grievance?ADiplomatically explain why to the worker. And, of course, you will have explored all the other ways of solving the worker's problem. Most workers can understand how everyone in the union loses if it backs a groundless complaint. However, a worker may decide on their own that a grievance needs to be filed. In such cases, the steward needs to be very careful so as to avoid DFR charges.

Of course, this is a true statement. The steward does need to be very careful. Choosing to deny a member access to the grievance process is the union's right, but if it is done in an arbitrary, discriminatory, or "bad faith" manner, it is a DFR violation. If it is done for a legitimate reason, however, the union has every right to deny the member access.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Say what you want about Pilot Controlled Lighting, 122.80 but he knows his stuff.

 

[scoreboardII]

WE do know over 2 minutes and not one PA from the flight deck. No checklist run, as spoilers still deployed during the whole evacuation process.

!

No, you don't know this. No engines running, system on standby battery, what hydraulically actuated systems are inop?

Lets wait for a report then you can hang the crew.

 

[Mach 80]

Also some rumors that the crew was knocked unconscious.