Questions for NetJet Pilots

[AirBear8]

A friend of mine recently left Mesa and went to work with NetJets. He gave me a LOR that I gave to Derinda & Jerry at a job fair and now there’s supposed to be an application on it’s way to me. My friend is very positive on NetJets right now, but he’s still in training. I’m getting a little concerned about what I’m reading on this forum so I thought I’d see if some of you more experienced NetJets Pilots would be kind enough to answer some questions or correct some assumptions I have.


Here’s my situation: I was at US Airways for 14 years then after furlough I flowed down to Mesa where I’ve been for the past 2 years. I’m a CRJ Captain commuting CLT-PHL. I’ll probably make $55K this year but I spend around $5K on medical insurance and commuting cost, items which if I understand correctly I wouldn’t have at NetJets. Not to mention all the time off I give up to commute and all the hassle. Our average schedule at Mesa has 8 of 28 days off for reserves and around 11-12 days off in 28 for lineholders. I’m a Mesa Captain out of seniority because of a deal Airways ALPA made with Mesa where we get a percentage of the left seats. If US Airways liquidates or even cancels their contract with Mesa I revert to 3 year F/O pay of about $30-35K/yr if I still even have a job there. Mesa does not treat their employees very well, contract violations are rampant and they stonewall grievances by doing stuff like refusing to release ALPA volunteers from flight duty.


Although published NetJets first year base pay is $27K, my friend was told he could make up into the high 30’s with per diem and flying on days off. Realistically he expects to make in the mid-30’s. Assuming I fly on days off and do everything else I can to max out my NetJets pay I’d like to know if this is realistic or not. I’d be willing to take the pay cut for a year or two, but not much longer than that. Not having to worry about commuting and finding a hotel room is worth quite a bit to me but I still have bills to pay. I could live with the high 30’s for a time.


Also, with the TA that was voted down how much of a raise would the junior pilots have seen? From what I read it’s not a question of getting a raise it’s just how much of one.


What I see in NetJets is a safe harbor while the airlines go through the major changes that are in progress. My friend was told the company plans to double in size in the next 3 to 4 years. But I’ve seen posts here where it was said it will take 5+ years to upgrade. I like being in the left seat but mostly I care about the pay. Do you guys think it’ll take more than 2 or 3 years before someone junior to me upgrades and I’ll get pay protection?


Also, since not commuting is a major factor in my interest with NetJets what are the chances some Gateway cities will be dropped?


Thanks for any info guys.


AirBear


P.S. Derinda just called offering me interview dates in March, she said I could even hand carry the app in if I needed to. So it looks like they’re interested in me.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

So it looks like they’re interested in me.

NetJets is interested in ANYONE that will take the job. They are having extreme difficulty getting people. While they may intitally find enough to actually accept the job, I understand a great many are leaving before even completing training.

If you are complaining about the number of days off you are currently getting at Mesa, you probably won't be getting any more by "flying on your days off" trying to sustain a livable wage at NetJets.

Upgrades may come more quickly than 5 years if other places start hiring and guys bail on NetJets. Also, there is another move afoot to try and get the Capt bid award as junior as possible so that as many pilots as possible are on bypass pay. It worked once. It will probably work this time, too. However, I would think the company will take measure to ensure this sort of thing does not become commonplace. Like forcing standing bids, etc.

Go in with all ears and eyes open, which it appears you are doing. There are certain sources which are not necessarily the best for information for the truth on what you can expect from a company. What they tell you in the interview and the giddy new hire. OK, maybe 3. The long time bitter and disgruntled lifer is probably not the best source, either.

Good luck. Maybe it's time some of that came your way. You seemed to have paid a fair price to have earned some.

 

[Grizz]

If you've got a pulse, they're interested. They can't get enough guys to show up for class. A group of guys will fill out the app, interview, etc but then when it comes time to sign that 2 year contract they start developing vision problems. They just can't see themselves doing something so stupid.

Pay & Upgrade - Count on easily 5 years before upgrade...maybe closer to 7. That's going to be into one of the smallest aircraft we have without an APU. The current F/O pay scale starts ay 27K and tops out at 33K at year 5. The TA had it starting at 33K and topping out at 38K at year 5.

The bypass pay thing isn't going to happen. The company wants to do away with any new cases of it. I'll be seriously surprised if it happens again under the existing contract. The time it happened was because of a very compelling argument - the guys that we bumped up to Captain's pay had been promised it during the interview 2 years earlier. No such reason exists this time.

There was no procedure for anyone new acquiring bypass pay in the failed TA. In that TA, they'd grandfather the existing pilots on bypass as long as they keep a standing bid in to upgrade in their respective aircraft. They turn down a bid, they revert to F/O pay.

Gateways - the company wanted all new hires to have to report for duty in one of 5 airports - EWR/TEB, CMH, MCO, LAX, or DAL. Theunion flatly refused this separation between existing pilots and new hires. Who knows what the eventual agreement will look like but you know what the company wants to do - force everyone eventually to report for duty in one of those locations.

I'd seriously be looking anywhere but here. You're going to take a major pay cut and have no real chance of upgrade for a number of years. Since nothing for certain is happening over at Mesa and the USAir thing...why jump the gun?

 

[gunfyter]

Thats a tough one. I believe in the long run you will be better off with us than staying at MESA. But that depends on how things shake out over the next 3 months of negotiations.

Southwest UPS and FEDEX? AGE? Age and Inertia is keeping me from that. Plus a belief we are really going to get a good TA this time. FAR 135/91K Duty Rest... solves a major negative we had of never ending standby.

Taking a large paycut.... I did the same thing 6 years ago.

How sure are you USAIR is going to fold their tent?

 

[AirBear8]

I'd seriously be looking anywhere but here. You're going to take a major pay cut and have no real chance of upgrade for a number of years. Since nothing for certain is happening over at Mesa and the USAir thing...why jump the gun?

Thanks for the info and quick response guys.

Why so long to upgrade if the growth plans call to double the fleet in 3-4 years? Or course I've heard all about growth plans before, the "Wolfman" at US Airways promised us "More Airplanes than God can Count" if we'd just give him the concessions he wanted. He got the concessions and the airplane count went the opposite way.

I can barely hold a line at Mesa, and commuting to reserve here is a miserable experience. I don't mind flying or being on call on days off if I'm doing if out of CLT. But right now there's no chance of being based in CLT with Mesa. Of the 30 ex-usair pilots in my Mesa class 2 years ago, only around 6 are still here. That's how bad they hated Mesa. Many went to the Mid-Atlantic Division of US Airways before the door slamed with the bankruptcy filing. I was supposed to go there back in Dec. I should have a chance to go there and fly the EMB-170 later this year if US Airways survives and this Air Wisconsin deal doesn't change things. Eventually I'll get recalled to US Airways, but no telling how many years that will take.

I could wait for the new contract at NetJets and then come over but I'm debating about doing it now since seniority is everything. I'll probably go ahead and interview and see what they say but I'll definitely be cautious. I just talked to my friend and he said he did have to sign the 2 year training contract. That might kill it for me because I want the option to go to Mid-Atlantic later this year if NetJets does't work out. Again, I'll have to see what that contract involves and find out if they have been enforcing it.
The biggest thing though is gateway cities. The only reason I'm even considering NetJets is because Charlotte is on that list. If there's a threat that the new contract will take that away then I'm not interested.

Thanks again guys.

AirBear

 

[AirBear8]

Thats a tough one. I believe in the long run you will be better off with us than staying at MESA. But that depends on how things shake out over the next 3 months of negotiations.

Southwest UPS and FEDEX? AGE? Age and Inertia is keeping me from that. Plus a belief we are really going to get a good TA this time. FAR 135/91K Duty Rest... solves a major negative we had of never ending standby.

Taking a large paycut.... I did the same thing 6 years ago.

How sure are you USAIR is going to fold their tent?

It's hard to tell about USAIR. The industry "experts" (whom I'm starting to believe don't have any more of a clue than the rest of us) have almost all said US Airways is toast. But they're making good progress with this Air Wisconsin investment. Many pilots on the Airways message board think this was an under the table way for UAL to start the merger. UAL can't do it themselves while in C-11 so they get Air Wisconsin to do it. After UAL exits C-11 a 3rd party like Texas Pacific Group will come up with the money to put the 2 airlines together. Then you'll have one giant low cost carrier. Pilot contracts at both airlines have been gutted. 16 year F/O's at USAir make in the mid-80's now compared to $130K+ a few years ago. And the rigs and min day pay have gotten so bad you can have a 4 day trip that pays around 12 hours.

I've had an app on file with SWA since late 2002. At the job fair I talked to the SWA PHX Chief Pilot. I showed him my resume and asked if there was an area I was weak in that would explain why I hadn't heard anything. He said he didn't understand because I had a strong resume. So he's going to make some inquires, at least so he said. I'm not holding my breath, but who knows. I applied to FedEx and UPS but don't know anyone there so they're both a long shot. Same thing for AWA. Their HR lady was at the fair. She said they really liked ex-USAir pilots but we still needed an internal LOR to get an app.
I'm 48 now so I need to get somewhere and stay put to have any chance of a decent retirement. One good thing is the deal we have with the PBGC retirement at US Airways. I can take early retirement at age 50 and still get $15K/yr instead of waiting until 60 and getting $28K/yr. If I'm certain I don't want to go back to USAir of it they fold I may do that and use the extra $$$ to max out a 401K.

Speaking of retirement, what's the deal at NetJets? Since it's not part 121 can you guys work past age 60?

AirBear

 

[Diesel]

I'll take some flak for this but here goes:

Commuting sucks arse. I mean it really sucks. I see what my wife has to go through begging for a ride and sometimes at the last second someone walks up and takes the last open seat. Usually it's when she's trying to get home and has been up for a long time.

The not commuting is a big plus for me. the pay. Well the pay is what it is. There are some extended days out there. I'm not sure how it's going for sic's. I hold no ill will to FO's that extend because they need the money and are just scraping by.

The captain bypass pay won't work for another year or so. Guys gave up a lot to make sure it happened last time. It won't happen for quite some time if ever so DON"T count on it.

The question you need to ask yourself is if you can handle this type of flying. This is not ment as a slam. It's just you have to ask yourself are you ready to load bags, get the catering, coffee, ice, papers, and retrieve the renal car for the owners, put the engine covers on and check the oil. Now ask yourself if your willing to do it in the Ultra with no apu and it's 105 degrees.

That's the real question you have to ask youself. Chances are your not going to get the X or anything with an apu. It's going to be the ultra or 400xp. It doesn't matter who was hired in the last class.

PM me if you want. If your PIT based you probably know my father-inlaw. He's USAir on the 73 right now.

 

[gunfyter]

Reason upgrades are so long. 600 to 700 SICs are on PIC pay right now. All of them will have to upgrade at first opportunity in any NEW CBA or lose their pay status back to SIC pay. We would need to add 200 airplanes to create a requirement for that many new PICs. we are seeing maybe 8 to 10 upgrade slots a month so it could be a long time... 4 or 5 years I would think.

Your current pay of $55k going to $28K to 32K and stuck there possibly for 4 or 5 years is in the neighborhood of $100K lost salary... over that time. Probably won't be that bad with a new CBA but we been waiting 4 yrs for a new CBA....

 

[AirBear8]

The question you need to ask yourself is if you can handle this type of flying. This is not ment as a slam. It's just you have to ask yourself are you ready to load bags, get the catering, coffee, ice, papers, and retrieve the renal car for the owners, put the engine covers on and check the oil. Now ask yourself if your willing to do it in the Ultra with no apu and it's 105 degrees.

That's the real question you have to ask youself. Chances are your not going to get the X or anything with an apu. It's going to be the ultra or 400xp. It doesn't matter who was hired in the last class.

I'm based in PHL, and believe me, I'd much rather take care of that stuff myself than begging on the radio to get someone out to do it. I like doing a good job for my pax, and the way things are in PHL that's difficult to do. About the only chore I wouldn't care for is dumping the lavs. Hopefully the FBO's take care of that. It'll be nice being able to retrieve someone's bag for them and not having to worry about a grievance being filed against me!

My friend was hired in the past few months and he had a choice of the Citation X or the Hawker 800, he took the latter. I understand the Hawker's got a better mission and bigger cockpit, but darn that X looks like it's doing Mach .90 just sitting on the ramp. I remember the first time I saw one I thought if I could afford to I'd fly the thing for free I'd do it just for the fun of it.

AirBear

 

[Diesel]

You say that now but ask Grizz about the size of bags that we load. And we don't even have knee pads like the rampers do.

You do have to carry the lav out in the ultra. That thing sucks in more ways than one.

Also remember when you make your decision your stuck for 2 years unless they fire you then they can't come after the money.

Personally I love my job. But that's just me and the position i'm in. I can't speak for a new hire.