Instrument Dual in a Multi

[ThunderRun]

Let's throw a twist in this scenario. Can a MEI (no instrument instructor rating) give commercial multi-engine instruction in an FTD. In other words, what is the definition of "authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device".

 

[midlifeflyer]

Let's throw a twist in this scenario. Can a MEI (no instrument instructor rating) give commercial multi-engine instruction in an FTD. In other words, what is the definition of "authorized instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device".

Depends on what the FTD time is being counted for. If it's being used toward the general multi-engine experience requirements as permitted by 61.129(i), yes. If it's to be used toward the instrument training requirements in 61.129(b)(3)(i), no

 

[JediNein]

Having recently been in two potentially hostile situations requiring FAA review of my pilot logbooks it will be interesting to see what FAA NATIONAL Legal Counsel has to say on this issue.

So far the Western-Pacific Region has not had a problem with CFI-IA SEL's giving instrument instruction (not for the purpose of a rating or certificate) in twins.

Also, they continue to not have a problem with CFII-SMEL's giving instrument instruction "not for the purpose of a rating or certificate" in aircraft for which a type rating is required.

However, they consider avionics training for instrument-rated pilots to be "instrument training" requiring a CFII.

Figure that one out.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[nosehair]

Look Again!

WoW, Jedi - you made me look again at 61.195 at the "not for a certificate or rating" part. Hey, now I see a difference!
(b) Aircraft ratings (not instrument ratings) "A flight instructor may not conduct training in any aircraft for which he does not hold APPLICABLE (caps mine) catagory and class ratings." See? APPLICABLE ratings for AIRCRAFT training, ie. Multi-Engine.

(C) Instrument Rating "A flight instructor who provides INSTRUMENT FLIGHT TRAINING FOR THE ISSUANCE OF AN INSTRUMENT RATING(caps mine) ...must hold catagory and class on ...flight instructor certificate."

So....if the instrument training is for recurrency, or proficiency, or anything OTHER THAN the initial issuance of the instrument rating...go for it!

 

[Ralgha]

§ 61.195 Flight instructor limitations and qualifications.

A person who holds a flight instructor certificate is subject to the following limitations:

(a) Hours of training. In any 24-consecutive-hour period, a flight instructor may not conduct more than 8 hours of flight training.

(b) Aircraft ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:


(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and

(2) If appropriate, a type rating.

 

[nosehair]

Right! That's right, Ralgha, under Aircraft Ratings, when you're teaching for the purpose of an aircraft rating, such as a multi-engine rating, then you must have the MEI, but under (C) Instrument Rating, the provision is that, if the instruction is for the purpose of obtaining an instrument rating in a multi-engine airplane, then the instructor must have an instrument rating on his/her pilot and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class. But if the training is not for the purpose of obtaining an instrument rating, such as instrument proficiency, then the regulation does not require the CFI to have an MEI. If you are taking (b) alone as justification, then how do you account for (c)?



(and you don't have to shout like that - it's rude.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

No need to yell Ralgha, but I agree with you. There's nothing in (b) that says "except as provided in (c)" and nothing in (c) that says ("notwithstanding anything to the contrary in (b)."

I really think that they are really are pretty simple sentences

(b) says that you can't give =any= instruction in an aircraft unless you have appropriate aircraft category and class ratings.

(c) says that you can't give instruction toward an instrument rating (and some other stuff) in an aircraft unless you have an instrument rating on your CFI certificate and on your pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category or class.

Or maybe FAA legal will come out with an opinion that says that a pilot with a pilot certifciate that says

Commercial ASEL
Private AMEL with a VFR restriction
IA

and a CFI certifciate that says
SEL
IA

can teach single-engine instrument approaches in an Aztec.

 

[Ralgha]

Sorry I didn't intend it to be taken as yelling, just wanted to emphasize (and use the nifty font tools)!

Being able to provide instrument training in a multi-engine airplane without a multi-engine CFI rating would be like flying a multi-engine airplane without a multi-engine rating as long as you had an instrument rating and never looked out the windows.

 

[Ralgha]

No need to yell Ralgha, but I agree with you. There's nothing in (b) that says "except as provided in (c)" and nothing in (c) that says ("notwithstanding anything to the contrary in (b)."

I really think that they are really are pretty simple sentences

(b) says that you can't give =any= instruction in an aircraft unless you have appropriate aircraft category and class ratings.

(c) says that you can't give instruction toward an instrument rating (and some other stuff) in an aircraft unless you have an instrument rating on your CFI certificate and on your pilot certificate that is appropriate to the category or class.

Or maybe FAA legal will come out with an opinion that says that a pilot with a pilot certifciate that says

Commercial ASEL
Private AMEL with a VFR restriction
IA

and a CFI certifciate that says
SEL
IA

can teach single-engine instrument approaches in an Aztec.

To back up Midlife, (b) is not superceeded by (c). (b) says any flight training. It doesn't qualify it at all. If you're acting as an instructor, you're giving training (logging it as dual given). (c) just adds additional requirements to it for the special case of instrument training.

 

[Lead Sled]

Being able to provide instrument training in a multi-engine airplane without a multi-engine CFI rating would be like flying a multi-engine airplane without a multi-engine rating as long as you had an instrument rating and never looked out the windows.

Ralpha, does that mean that it is wrong for two single engine rated pilots to fly a twin as long as one only operates the left engine and the other only operates the right?

Lead Sled