Free First Officers!

[Timebuilder]

Just as you have to accept my word, I have to accept yours. Your experience stands in stark contrast to mine. Perhaps the older generation (older than myself, and my contacts on this issue) is more sensitive to the concept of paying someone for operating experience that displaces what would be a paid pilot position. These guys lived through the great depression and WWII, and have a strong ethical and moral base.

During my instructing experience, a 767 captain came by the school with his young nephew, to have me take them up for an air tour of the surrounding area. I had never met the man. After the flight, I received a few compliments on my flying. I said to myself, "now is the time to ask an opinion". So I did.

I asked "what do you think I should do to further my flying career at this point, what's the best approach?" He said that I "should continue to instruct and build contacts, keep sending out resumes, and consider cargo and charter as the best ways to prapare for a great career, no matter your age". As we walked accross the ramp, he also offered, without prompting "..and whatever you do, don't go out and buy yourself a job!!"

He added extra emphasis to those words, and he was far younger than the other pilots who had advised me over the past ten years.

I hate to burst your bubble but the people interviewing at the airlines don't care if you PFTd nor do they admire you for not doing it even though you had the money. That's just a fact.

Interestingly, I have a captain friend who has served for many years on the hiring board at Continental. He has also advised against PFT, along with canned interview prep as the two worst factors an interviewee can bring to the table.

My only agenda is to pass on what I know from others, and what I believe is an act of being true to the best aspects of one's moral foundation, as I understand it. Since being a person of good moral character is an ATP requirement, I think this is a highly relevant discussion.

One more thing.

I shaved off my gray beard three years ago. I thought it would interfere with my oxygen mask, not to mention making me look older than I already am.

 

[Mrs_Boeing]

Mama B- Your making me hot

Glad to hear it. However I should probably tell you upfront that you probably ain't my type.

Well Mr. Builder I infer from your post that you are a bit older than I, and you may be one of the grey-beards of which I speak. But I can only tell you what I know and have seen and heard. I guess my experience just differs.

Be that as it may, I will not degrade and personally attack someone else for how they got to where they are, no matter how they did it. I have personally known and worked with a female CFI from Finland who moved quickly from CFI'ing to the right seat of a Citation at less than 600 hours by interviewing on her back. Last time I talked to her she was getting cozy with the married CP of a very large charter group running aircraft as large as a B733. She has less than 2000 hours but she'll be in a Boeing before I get back in one I'm sure. Do I hold that against her? Not at all. We all do what we have to do to the extent that we're comfortable. Would I do it? Definitely not. But that's life. I have a rule about not judging others because there is one alone who can do that and he ain't into aviation. At least not the kerosene-powered kind.

Fly safe ya'll.

Mommy Boeing

 

[Timebuilder]

Do I hold that against her? Not at all. We all do what we have to do to the extent that we're comfortable. Would I do it? Definitely not. But that's life.

Certainly, this is also common in my former field, broadcasting. While she made a choice, it is more than "that's life". While I appreciate your understanding of the ultimate judgement, let me remind you that the judge to whom you refer has directed each one of us to struggle against the temptation to take the easy, "broad" way, and instead seek the more difficult, "narrow" way.

Encouraging others who choose good while discouraging others who decide on evil isn't so much making a "judgment" as it is to be a good steward of the understanding that we have been given. I suggest that there is much more to life than is apparent, and the acheivement of a particular position, even a kama sutra position or an airline position is not nearly as important as the journey we undertake to arrive at the destination.

It's the journey.

 

[pipers]

what about traffic watch in your neighborhood?? where i live, all the traffic watch pilots fly for free....kind of sad

 

[Timebuilder]

You're right.

But...

If pilots refused to do it, it wouldn't be happening.

That's why we neeed to discourage this kind of thing among others who don't yet know any better.

 

[bobbysamd]

Foreign airline programs v. P-F-T

Try telling that to the former cadets at many UK airlines who are flying all over Europe at 300 TT . . . .

You are sadly misinformed. There is no comparison whatsoever to European or Asian airline cadet programs and P-F-T.

Airlines such as Air France, Air Inter, Swissair, Tyrolean, Asiana and Alitalita, just to name a few, hand-pick their trainees and send them to flight school to be trained their way. Compare that to P-F-T in the good old U. S. of A., where the only thing that is "hand-picked" is your pocket!

These airlines may train their students at their own schools and/or send them to a contract school for training. These students do not P-F-T. Quite the contrary; they are employees of their airlines and have their room and board paid for by their airline along with expense stipends. I know what I'm talking about; all these airlines had contract programs at FlightSafety in Vero Beach when I instructed there twelve years ago; in fact, I instructed in the Alitalia program.

Further to the Alitalia program, there was always an Alitalia training captain on site. Instructors in our program received standardization to train our crews the same way that the Alitalia school in Alghero, Sardinia, trains students. In fact, Alitalia sent our group leader to the Alghero school to observe the program first-hand and to ensure we American CFIs were giving our students the specialized training demanded by Alitalia.

I have learned that in recent years Alitalia has sent its students to International Flight Training Academy in Bakersfield, California. IFTA (Air Staff, Inc.) is known primarily as the All Nippon Airways pilot school, but accepts contract students from other airlines. I know we have at least a couple of current and former IFTA CFIs who read this board and can vouch for my statements. I have a friend who taught at IFTA in Bakersfield.

Finally, Airline Training Center Arizona in Phoenix. ATCA has been the Lufthansa primary training venue for years. I know that program, too, because I interviewed there and have had friends who were instructors there. That school provides specialized training to its Lufthansa and contract students. I believe that Iberia Airlines sent its hand-picked students to train at ATCA.

Point is, there is no comparison to foreign airline ab initio programs and P-F-T. That is, unless you find apples v. oranges a profitable comparison.

My wife and I flew on Continental about a year ago. I talked to the pilots I spotted about you-know-where in South Florida. They thought it was a joke. Although I believe that quite a few major airline pilots lose their perspective of lower-level aviation once they get that "767 seat," quite a few others realize that P-F-T is uncool.

 

[sf3boy]

If you pay to get hired for a job, that means that the company only wants/needs someone with a pulse in the right seat. Comair, ACA, ASA, EXA, COEX have all had PFT over some of the years. To those that got hired without paying, thanks for helping make this profession worth the hard work and sacrificies that most of us have endured. To those who paid, you got more money than brains.

I can't believe that anyone would pay $10k and higher to have a job that pays less than most teaching jobs in Arkansas. But that's just me. I'd rather work for my living.

 

[Timebuilder]

Compare that to P-F-T in the good old U. S. of A., where the only thing that is "hand-picked" is your pocket!

ROTFLMAO!!!

Thanks, Bobby. I needed a good laugh!

 

[Mrs_Boeing]

Just curious Bobby, how did you get your type?

Moma

 

[AV8OR]

Hey momma. I don't know about Bobby, but I can answer for myself. I was PAID for all three of mine. (Four if you count the FEX)Just got done with the latest, the F-10. Probably cost the customer around 20K and I was getting a paycheck the whole time I was there, and a good one at that. Same as the other types. But prior to that, I worked my a$$ off washing airplanes, then flying single engine freight, then flying multi-engine freight then going to the NBAA conventions, handing out resumes, networking taking out classifieds in B/CA, etc. It's call work. Something foreign to some of the "gotta have it now" crowd.

You don't HAVE to comprimise your integrity to get a job in aviation. Whether that means PFT, flying illegal or unsafe aircraft, or flying illegal or unsafe trips. It may take more time. It may require more work and creativity, but hey, like they say, "It's not about the destination, it's the journey that provides the thrill."

Regards