FlexJet / Flight Options / SkyJet

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Architect. You forgot to mention Options had a pilot representative prior to the contract. It was the in-house committee and the company didn't make one improvement that they recommended.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Perhaps the hardest realization, the most difficult thing to come to terms with for each of those pilots, is that the parties that owned them are gone. No more. New executives are driving that ship. Like it or not.

Now, don't be fooled. The ship is run from the top down.

Could a such a large group of individuals, in the same profession, under the rules and policies of that leadership for so many years, simply be wrong about voting for representation?

So each pilot should ask themselves, if so many pilots voted for representation at Flight Options under the leadership of these parties, the same parties that now have control of my employment, should I not seriously consider whether there are really any downsides of having representation?

I get and respect that things were bad enough at options years ago for you to unionize. But, so far things are fine at flex. No changes to pay/schedules/benefits. Sure they can change it, but I think the consensus is we will wait until they do make drastic changes before we beat the drum to unionize. So far we have not seen any reason here to unionize. Voting in the union will almost surely mean loss of pay/schedule/benefits for the flex people right? how can we be sure we'd get at least what we have now?

 

[The Architect]

Different Measures.

I get and respect that things were bad enough at options years ago for you to unionize. But, so far things are fine at flex. No changes to pay/schedules/benefits. Sure they can change it, but I think the consensus is we will wait until they do make drastic changes before we beat the drum to unionize. So far we have not seen any reason here to unionize. Voting in the union will almost surely mean loss of pay/schedule/benefits for the flex people right? how can we be sure we'd get at least what we have now?

Just because a group unionizes doesn't mean things got better with regard to who management is and how they would like to manage. It simply means that protections are in place because of the unionization and now unilateral control and at will employment no longer exist. In turn, this prevents unfear treatment and discipline without just cause. If the union was removed at Flight Options tomorrow, things would be bad enough to push for another union movement in very short time.

Different individuals measure certain amounts of gains and loses on different scales. One pilot may be willing to accept slightly lower compensation for a slightly better schedule. Or one pilot may be willing to give up a long term benefit for more money now. No set standard exists across the board.

However, why would the assumption be a loss of pay/schedule/benefits "surely" comes with a union. That's exactly the combination of things that unions exist to improve. Aren't those the gains that occur after an employee group achieves union representation?

Perhaps, naysayers are providers of that information. If so, one has to ask why they would spread such misinformation? Is it for personal gain? Is it because they are management, so union representation is not to their advantage?

"How can we be sure we'd get at least what we have now?" With regard to what? What is the measure? Some things a pilot group does get: Scope Protection, Seniority based compensation, schedules, filling of vacancies, vacation, etc. These are some of the CONTRACTUAL items. And the Just Cause Provision. The provision that says, "you can't discipline me without just cause." Contractual due to a collective bargaining agreement under the RLA.

 

[Club ORD FO]

However, why would the assumption be a loss of pay/schedule/benefits "surely" comes with a union. That's exactly the combination of things that unions exist to improve. Aren't those the gains that occur after an employee group achieves union representation?

Well to be blunt I don't think you guys have a very good contract now. I have my doubts about your negotiating committee being able to move your paycales up to at least what we have now.

And yeah I get that a contract gets you representation and scope and all that, but so far at flex we upgrade by seniority, we lay off by seniority, and I can't think of anyone who was fired who didn't deserve it. In fact I can think of multiple people who I thought were given more chances than they deserve. And they certainly were not in the good ol' boys club. So there is not a huge need for those types of protections. Not enough to warrant the risk of losing pay and benefits.

 

[gret]

Well to be blunt I don't think you guys have a very good contract now. I have my doubts about your negotiating committee being able to move your paycales up to at least what we have now.

And yeah I get that a contract gets you representation and scope and all that, but so far at flex we upgrade by seniority, we lay off by seniority, and I can't think of anyone who was fired who didn't deserve it. In fact I can think of multiple people who I thought were given more chances than they deserve. And they certainly were not in the good ol' boys club. So there is not a huge need for those types of protections. Not enough to warrant the risk of losing pay and benefits.

Couldn't have said it better...

...while reading the post I was thinking this is pretty utopian stuff and where the heck was the union the last time around...oh...that's right... they were the ones that did the negotiating on behalf of the group. The FLOPS pilots have a lot to be cranky about...but it shouldn't be with the company, it's their own union. The members should ask for a refund or sue 'em for malpractice.

Trying to sell the benefits of a union in this case is pure folly as you have one and you're miserable....the other group doesn't and they sound happy as hell.

 

[Club ORD FO]

Actually the negotiating committee is pilots so... the teamsters themselves would not have been involved much, just provided lawyers and support. But the pilots were at the negating table. Probably part of the reason the contract turned out the way it did. Company lawyers vs pilots. hmmm... Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but that's my understanding of how it works

 

[The Architect]

Committee Members.

Well to be blunt I don't think you guys have a very good contract now. I have my doubts about your negotiating committee being able to move your paycales up to at least what we have now.

And yeah I get that a contract gets you representation and scope and all that, but so far at flex we upgrade by seniority, we lay off by seniority, and I can't think of anyone who was fired who didn't deserve it. In fact I can think of multiple people who I thought were given more chances than they deserve. And they certainly were not in the good ol' boys club. So there is not a huge need for those types of protections. Not enough to warrant the risk of losing pay and benefits.

That would be the Flexjet and Flight Options Pilot groups MERGED negotiating committee. A new CBA would be negotiated with members from the Flexjet and Flight Options pre-merger pilot groups. A new CBA covering the merged represented pilots would be negotiated. Not a modification to the Flight Options existing CBA.

As a matter of fact, Flexjet pilots may not have to wait until then to be a member of a committee. Additional individuals may have interest in joining the FJOC.

 

[The Architect]

Correction

Actually the negotiating committee is pilots so... the teamsters themselves would not have been involved much, just provided lawyers and support. But the pilots were at the negating table. Probably part of the reason the contract turned out the way it did. Company lawyers vs pilots. hmmm... Correct me if I'm wrong of course, but that's my understanding of how it works

The Flight Options CBA negotiations consisted of company representatives and union representative. Company representatives were senior management, attorneys and senior executives. Union representative were pilots, advisors and attorneys. Those pilots...they were the representatives of the "union." Pilots are the Union. And once a tentative agreement was reached, EVERY pilot (active and furloughed) voted on it. Once ratified, it became the CBA.

 

[slowtation capt]

BTW, you VP of the union (not sure he correct title) just accosted one if our 300 FOs. Told him the list was done and it is DOH. All the junior FJ folks are getting furloughed so the FO pilots can take their jobs.

I guess they need another month to work on this list, because that's what the company delayed the meetings in CGF for.

Wonder what kind of rush they are in that another month will help them with

 

[dime line]

Well to be blunt I don't think you guys have a very good contract now. I have my doubts about your negotiating committee being able to move your paycales up to at least what we have now.

And yeah I get that a contract gets you representation and scope and all that, but so far at flex we upgrade by seniority, we lay off by seniority, and I can't think of anyone who was fired who didn't deserve it. In fact I can think of multiple people who I thought were given more chances than they deserve. And they certainly were not in the good ol' boys club. So there is not a huge need for those types of protections. Not enough to warrant the risk of losing pay and benefits.

I guess you don't remember a few years back when FLEX fired a bunch out of seniority. It happened. And your comment about "deserving to be fired", somebody might deserve to be fired as long as its not you. FLOPS fired 70 and FLEX fired a few a while back