Crash at ASE...

[hammer2]

Uh, yea, that's exactly what copilots do all the time. They just sit there and watch their lives end....... It's the way it is. Now maybe you weren't like that and that guy wasn't like that....but 99.99% of them are like that. It's the way it is........!!!!

I have told captains to suck my "beep" when they wouldn't put enough fuel on to make me comfortable. Literally laugh at tyem in the lobby of the FBO when they tell me we're going and thats that.....yeah, whatever fat man.

I've called the tower and said "Nxxxx going missed approach we have full scale deflection" when dumb moron stupid captains would be chasing needles at 800 feet on an ILS in bad weather. I've called Minimum Fuel on Lear 25's when the moron captains wanted to get back in line #10 for another approach in a Lear 25 with 800 pounds of fuel remaining after going Missed Approach in bad weather.

As far as I'm concerned, in many cases, before the flight departs and while the plane is in the air.....the copilot is the final authority, especially when it's a moron captain sitting in the left seat trying to kill you making stupid decisions. I didn't make a lot of captains happy sometimes, but screw them, I'm still alive.

Copilots need to speak up more and literally tell the captain he can suck it.......get on the radio and call missed approach, that will force the morons to actually go missed. Coming down final tell the tower there's a 30 it tailwind and we can't land in that, the captain would then have to go missed. Don't just sit there and fly into wind shear, tail winds, gusts and low visibility....IN FREAKIN ASPEN......

Copilots need to take control more often, that's EXACTLY why they are there. Ay time I talk to a new copilot I tell him exactly how you keep from letting a moron captain kill you. And DO NOT leave on the flight if anything is out of your comfort zone, because they are truly the final authority. If they say the plane doesn't fly, it doesn't fly. No while its flying there's many things they can say to force a moron captain from continuing to do something dangerous.

-----and. I don't need anyone to post how..."But they will lose their job if they do that." Uh, well.......this copilot is going into the ground now because he didn't speak up. And if he was all for trying to land in that weather in Aspen, that makes two fools.

Ah, whatever.......like you said, its not gonna be the last. And WHY.....because copilots won't speak up. So whatever.....

Good for you for speaking up when you needed to in the interest of safety. Now use some of that bravado and find a job that doesn't put you in such compromising positions.

 

[hammer2]

Was the opposite end being used for departure, or was aircraft taking off with that tail wind?

dustr, you land 15 and depart 33 at Aspen, some do circle to 33.

 

[dustrpilot]

Thanks Hammer

 

[Ticker]

Is it just me or does that final nose over appear unnatural? It really seems extreme. I mean I just don't think the elevator has enough effectiveness at that slow speed to get that extreme a nose over. Even with a hydraulically boosted elevator like the B-717 theres little air going over that h-stab/elevator.

I'm wondering if in that final balloon, a rotor gust got the tail.

 

[hammer2]

Is it just me or does that final nose over appear unnatural? It really seems extreme. I mean I just don't think the elevator has enough effectiveness at that slow speed to get that extreme a nose over. Even with a hydraulically boosted elevator like the B-717 theres little air going over that h-stab/elevator.

I'm wondering if in that final balloon, a rotor gust got the tail.

The last nose down might have been due to the pusher.

 

[Ticker]

I suppose you're right. I was really surprised how extreme that nose down was.

Is there a FDR on that model? That will tell the tale.

 

[400A]

I have a friend who is a 604 driver. He was of the opinion that was the pusher. He said is was a 80lb push on the Challenger. He said it will take the yoke out of your hand.

 

[Shag McNasty]

Pilot Induced Oscillation

 

[2000Easyguy]

Pilot Induced Oscillation

Pilots exceeded tailwind limitations on landing.

 

[Shag McNasty]

Pilots exceeded tailwind limitations on landing.

Agreed, but that should have caused them to go skidding off the end of the runway. The PIO is what caused them to crash into the runway. I know, it's a stupid argument, never should've been in that spot to begin with.