CAL--This can't be real...

[densoo]

As the guy said....adhering is the key word and if it is well below freezing and the wing is also well below freezing the stuff is not adhering than go.....

"It was more than my opinion that morning that the loose powdery snow would have departed almost immediately during the takeoff roll;"

How can you know this until you start the takeoff roll. And then, if it doesn't blow off?

If it is on the wing isn't it, by definition, adhering?

 

[MD11Drvr]

Ya know, when I flew smaller aircraft a large push broom could save you from de-iceing. But now that I have the equivlant of a football field to sweep and a couple hundred folks it seems deiceing would be the way to go.

 

[PositiveRate]

If it's on the wing, it's adhering...it's a black or white issue, no gray area. It seems the 25-30 aircraft in line for de-icing had this basic concept down pat.

 

[AK737FO]

cold and dry

In Alaska's World you do not want to deice for a light powder. To do so would be foolish. Why add liquid to a bone dry cold soaked wing? It will be froze up rock solid before you get to the runway. If the powder on the wing comes off with a breath of wind, we are good to go on the Arctic. I think the Continential Chief got it right - but his troops have been so trained to go for the type II if they see a snowflake that he has to recant his statement. When ever I see a jet getting deiced for a dab of powder on a -30 wing, I just see $100 bills flying out the end of the hose, what a waste.

 

[crashpad]

What's wrong with using common sense and saving thousands of dollars for the company? It might be the 1 dollar which puts a company in the black and gives the pilot leverage to request a pay increase.

 

[Beechnut]

In Alaska's World you do not want to deice for a light powder. To do so would be foolish. Why add liquid to a bone dry cold soaked wing? It will be froze up rock solid before you get to the runway. If the powder on the wing comes off with a breath of wind, we are good to go on the Arctic. I think the Continential Chief got it right - but his troops have been so trained to go for the type II if they see a snowflake that he has to recant his statement. When ever I see a jet getting deiced for a dab of powder on a -30 wing, I just see $100 bills flying out the end of the hose, what a waste.

What's that got to do with that day in Newark?

S.

 

[720persecond]

If I worked for CAL I d send him an email asking him to come with a broom next time I have to deice. It's much cheaper than Type I

 

[Caveman]

As usual the truth is somewhere in the middle. The CP's point about a herd mentality is valid. How many times have we seen a/c that just made a quick turn head out to the de-ice line because everybody else was in line? They just landed, the airframe is clean but they went and got in line with all the lightly frosted originating a/c that have been cold-soaked for the last 8 hours.

OTOH there are too many eyeballs watching us day in and day out to not take an extremely conservative approach in everything we do. It's the same old story, if you don't deice and something minor happens that really has nothing to do with deicing the question will always be, "Why didn't you deice?". Look at the recent fiasco in JFK with JetBlue. Despite everybody trying to do the right thing and play by the rules some crews are being taken to task by the feds for departing when the ATIS was indicating ice pellets. The fact that at the time there weren't any ice pellets is irrelevant to the feds. The Captain's real time observation doesn't count. The ATIS said so, it must be so. You can't win no matter what you do.

Personally, if I have accumulated snow on the airframe, powder or not, I'm getting deiced. I don't know whether or not it will blow off on the takeoff roll. Besides, every definition I've ever read says I can't depart with frozen stuff adhering to the airplane. Depart in my book means to start down the runway. How is it possible to do that legally with snow on the a/c? As soon as we start to roll we are 'departing'. It has to be clean before I can depart. It doesn't say I can depart with snow as long as it clears up within 1 minute, or 30 seconds, or 15 minutes, or any other time. It has to be clean before I add T/O power. YMMV.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

What's that got to do with that day in Newark?

S.

Not much, even if it is 10 Degrees F. When you end taxiing for 45 minutes behind someone else, and the jetblast causes the "loose" flurries to melt and refreeze on your wing, you can guarantee the little "chiefy" will disappear from sight when a cellphone video of your upper wing surface shows up on the "O'Reilly Factor"

I thought the "chiefy's" clarification letter was dumber than the first. Don't take it as an insult CAL, every "chiefy" hired at my major has had their "bags" removed before their first day on duty.

 

[eaglefly]

How can you tell what's going to adhere and what's not ?

I suppose those 25-30 CAL planes should've taxied out and lined up for takeoff LOOKING like Air Florida. I'm sure the pax would have been going insane, not to mention any deadheading pilots.

Now who knows, MAYBE all of them would have lifted off nicely. Maybe one woudn't have. The idiot who wrote that Letter has now jeopardized CAL with regard to belief in the propriety of takeoffs with the "clean aircraft" concept. Should that little ditty make it home to some crew and they assume no adherance and are wrong, the lawyers for the next-of-kin of their victims will barbeque CAL for safety issues. I believe lawyers refer to that as "culpable negligence"

This Letter is now OUT THERE for use against CAL in the future.

That moron is not only an incompetant idiot for producing such rubbish, someones will be in the doghouse for publicly publishing it.

CAL's lawyers HAVE to be groaning right now.