Asiana 777 crashed on landing at SFO

[t-bone]

What's a QAR event?

 

[densoo]

You still have a GPS and RNP to 28L and R....it's even better than an ILS because you don't have to tune a radio! And it gives you a glide slope. It will be interesting to see what navigation they were using and what was said between crew members...

NTSB lady said this evening that the autopilot was off and the left seat flight director was off.

She also said they're reviewing data on all the 777 approaches to 28L for the last few days. Where else can they get that from except from the FOQA data. Although the agreement is that FOQA data is de-identified before use, I wonder how many FSAP reports will be filled out tonight?

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

What's a QAR event?

Quick Access Recorder (QAR)

Downloads automatically every time we land and thoroughly checked by management every day for violations. A very common term in Asia. In N. America QAR events are only utilized for training LOFT scenarios but in Asia you are severely punished for even minor infractions.

 

[SpaceShipEarth]

Just had an event where the Heading Knob jammed up....No big deal, right?

Yup.

Try having the autopilot intercept an ILS when you cant select the Heading.

You wind up with F/D OFF, or erroneous Lateral Nav information which you must ignore, and a lot of hand flying into NYC airspace at a critical time.....after an Atlantic Crossing and a 12-16 hour Duty Day.

It happens. It sucks. It isn't pretty.

BUT, it's "Do-Able" if you hand fly now and then....Or, better yet, spent the first 20 years of your Career doing so.

Ab Initio, Push Button "Pilots" might have some trouble with this....I know I did after the last 10 years of automated Boeings.

Thank God for the first 20 years of having to "Do It For Real".




YKW

Turn off autopilot/FD. Intercept localizer. Select approach mode. Select A/P back on. Easy

 

[Dieterly]

Post of the year!!! It covers everything, Asian carriers,fatigue (landing on the backside of your body clock after a long IOE flight possible with no sleep due to stress associated with training) disclaimer; I work for an Asian carrier.

Who wants to bet the industry will learn nothing from this, save for maybe the actual professional pilots who understand this stuff?

I know it's still too early to speculate but the NTSB is putting out information about this accident faster than I've ever seen via twitter and other means so I think it's fair to at least start considering what may have occurred. My observations thus far:

- not surprising, Asian cockpit techniques... over-reliance on automation. Inability to actually fly an airplane. Volumes have been written about this issue. Yet the Asians quite regularly tell us Westerners to mind our business when we try to suggest they change their ways. I have personally seen this in India, Japan and Korea. Lots of trivial "make-work" cockpit stuff they do which takes attention away from flying the aircraft. If I had a nickel for every time I heard "You Americans think you know everything... " when working for various carriers in these countries.

- IOE. I've always thought IOE was a pretty risky event as it is. I recall years ago when a check-airman literally talked to me all the way across the Atlantic... all night long. Unreal. How much aviation crap do you have to cover? I was worn out before we even got to TOD. The approach was a blur. In fact I recall my neck being kinked from turning towards him as if to show I'm interested. If I knew then what I know now I would've told him enough is enough. It's impossible to cover it all in 25-40 hrs of IOE. Just show the student how to land and shoot approaches. It will take him or her another 300-1000 hrs to get comfortable with the airplane. That's just the way it is. Someone needs to start telling checkairman that it doesn't make them a bad instructor if they don't talk the whole flight. Cover a few items, yes. Maybe give some pointers on the arrival, approach and landing. But enough with the "let me show you how much I know" technique. Then again, maybe it's 180 degrees different in this case. Maybe the checkairman wasn't giving enough input, clearly not at the critical moments, if this Captain was elder and senior to him.

50% power when you're 35 kts below target speed? Are you kidding me?

- The dumbing down of aviation. Both Boeing and Airbus have strived to make today's aircraft dummy-proof. Which is why you see certain people hired into this profession because of who they know, rather than on their skills and competence. The conventional wisdom has become, "anyone can be trained to fly these things". Well, apparently not when things step outside of one's comfort zone. Even at my airline I see a few of pilots who lack basic airmanship skills. Look at all the posts on all the web-boards talking about what to do if the A/T does this or that. Who cares? Turn the auto-throttles off and fly the airplane. IMO, this should be a requirement. But I know that will never happen.

-Fatigue. These guys were landing a jet after a grueling 11 hr flight at their WOCL. No doubt they were probably awake for 16-18 hrs save for maybe a short nap on the airplane. They were sleep deprived and fatigued. No doubt about it. The fatigue issue was probably amplified if excessive instruction was being conducted across the Pacific. All of the contributing factors to fatigue will be probably be brushed under the rug.

At the end of the day, the so-called "experts" like that talking parrot Schiavo, or the annoying "aviation buff" Richard Quest, and the whole host of non-pilots who have zero idea about how we do our jobs will push for recommendations of further automation, more IOE, whatever.

The reality seems pretty simple, barring any MAJOR engine anomalies, these guys forgot how to fly an airplane likely due to a career defined by automation in the cockpit. Pretty stupid if you ask me. This and the Asian hierarchy variables has always been pretty well known and those of us who have witnessed it have always warned of it's dire consequences.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

NTSB lady said this evening that the autopilot was off and the left seat flight director was off.

She also said they're reviewing data on all the 777 approaches to 28L for the last few days. Where else can they get that from except from the FOQA data. Although the agreement is that FOQA data is de-identified before use, I wonder how many FSAP reports will be filled out tonight?

FOQA is an internal airline thing. The data is protected and de-identified within the airlines FOQA program. FOQA data = the downloaded and processed data from an FDR into a FOQA database.

FDR data is ***NOT*** FOQA data.

Anything on the FDR is owned by the NTSB after an accident, and there are a bunch of flights on one FDR.

Long-haul planes have fewer flights due to the time per flight, but at ASA the small recorders had ~ 40 flights, and the large ones had ~ 300 or so. If your FDR goes to the NTSB, they have the legal ability to review each of those flights if they choose.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Quick Access Recorder (QAR)

Downloads automatically every time we land and thoroughly checked by management every day for violations. A very common term in Asia. In N. America QAR events are only utilized for training LOFT scenarios but in Asia you are severely punished for even minor infractions.

Most 121 airlines (USA) now have FOQA. Some use QARs, and some download the FDR directly. The QAR is normally just a mirror image of the FDR, those some of the more advanced ones capture parameters that the FDR cannot.

In the US, FOQA programs are observed closely, and pilots are protected by anonymity. Breaking that trust results in the collapse of the program.

 

[DCAA320]

Deleted

 

[WYOMINGPILOT]

In the US, FOQA programs are observed closely, and pilots are protected by anonymity. Breaking that trust results in the collapse of the program.[/QUOTE]

Yes precisely this is the key difference between the Asian flying cultures and N. America. In Asia each QAR event is brought up as an infraction and each Captain called on the carpet to confess his sins in front of the Chief Pilot and usually fined and sometimes grounded for several weeks. For example events like landing more than 2400' down the runway, 1 dot off localizer or glide slope, establishing final landing flap setting by 1000' AGL, hard landings above 1.8G, sink rates of greater than 1000' below 2000' agl will all find you in front of the Chief Pilot. Because of the punishment mentality, hand flying is frowned upon which produces automation dependent pilots. This accident was years in the making by the Asian flying culture and punishment mentality of QAR events. There are no anonymous disclosure programs like FOQA in Asian airlines. Hand flying and non-precision approaches are highly discouraged. Couple this highly automation dependency, a punishment culture and a non-precision approach in an Asian carrier and you have an accident which was years in the making.

 

[Peardc10]

With the ILS OTS, speculation on the PAPI OTS, why did they not use LNAV/VNAV. They had all the available tools at their disposal for lateral and vertical guidance to the runway. Yes, they should be able to fly a basic visual approach to this runway, but if the ILS OTS, the instructor should have explained that other resources are available to provide some vertical and lateral guidance, and also be able to hand fly a visual approach.

Curious, during the approach phase-what briefing was given with regards to the ILS OTS? And how are we going to fly this approach to 28L, just curious?