American... Get that rig!

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba you're talking at me and not with me.

Seriously? -I'm- talking at you? Did you even read your post that I responded to?

You made a declaration, in all caps (!), that productivity was bad for pilots and only good for the company. You left absolutely no room for interpretation, and then condescended to everyone else about the "value" of people's time.

Not talking about productivity as a one way street. OF COURSE we want to be productive.

Okay then, make up your mind. In your first post, you said just the opposite: "PRODUCTIVITY TO THE AIRLINE MANAGERS IS MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET AND INTO THEIRS."

There is a word of difference between doing a 3 day trip and getting only paid the flight time and nothing on your 30 hour layover and doing it and getting paid 5.15 min daily credit while sitting there. Unlike southwest, airlines that fly big jets on long single segment trips into markets with only one flight per day HAVE to have trip rigs or the pilots end up working for free. This is something meaningless to you but trust me the guys at Delta and United know what Im taking about. As do many unhappy AA pilots holding junior trips that are "unproductive".

Yes, I'm for rigs. They protect the pilot and keep the company honest. And they're certainly a necessity with an operation like you describe (one flight-per-day markets).

But more importantly, I'm for working more hours during any given three-day, so that I don't have to work more days in addition to that three-day, to total the credit I need for the month. In my mind, that's productivity, and that's how it's helpful to the pilot.

Perhaps we're arguing different things. You seem to be defining "productivity" as working more total days; I say "productivity" is working more hours during your work days, so you don't have to work more days.

Bubba

 

[HA25]

...., and it's not what HA25 was railing about.


Seriously? -I'm- talking at you? Did you even read your post that I responded to?

You made a declaration, in all caps (!), that productivity was bad for pilots and only good for the company. You left absolutely no room for interpretation, and then condescended to everyone else about the "value" of people's time.



BTW, I am
Bubba

WOW! are you even reading what I'm typing???? IT IS what I said... my God and you talk about General Lee being out of touch.

I said it before... the word productivity is a two way street... VERY different things from a pilots' view vs a management team's. If I work 22 days a month and get 75 hours of credit, I AM PRODUCTIVE to management, do you not get that?

Read the whole G'dam thread... not just my last post. Problem is you spend 90% of your time trolling G'Lee and 10% actually discussing issues on here. Issues frankly which have very little to do with your airline or your type of flying.. This is Legacy airline stuff..

 

[Jim]

BTW, I don't understand this statement. "Increasing productivity" means working longer or denser trips during your pairing, rather than sitting in hotels. How does that give up time off? Does it mean something different to you?

Bubba

By the nature of our flying, and most international flying, you can't fly "denser" trips. There are no connecting trips nor time under FAR 117 to make working longer during a trip a possibility. So the only way to be more productive is to work additional trips which means giving up days off.

According to my friend who is a junior 767 FO at AA, it is the same for them. Delta and United have the day minimum.

And you were sort of right in your other post. It's not just a SWA and regional thing. Your view of more productivity would work for most majors in their domestic flying. But a very significant portion of their pilots are flying international and not domestic. You have to protect the international pilots and you can't have a contract that favors one group with rigs while leaving the other out. So that makes SWA unique among the majors in being able to increase productivity across the board your way.

 

[SWA Bubba]

WOW! are you even reading what I'm typing???? IT IS what I said... my God and you talk about General Lee being out of touch.

I said it before... the word productivity is a two way street... VERY different things from a pilots' view vs a management team's. If I work 22 days a month and get 75 hours of credit, I AM PRODUCTIVE to management, do you not get that?

Read the whole G'dam thread... not just my last post. Problem is you spend 90% of your time trolling G'Lee and 10% actually discussing issues on here. Issues frankly which have very little to do with your airline or your type of flying.. This is Legacy airline stuff..

Dude! You should un-wad your panties before you hurt yourself.

I did read the whole "G-dam" thread, and re-read it again just now to be sure. And no, Mr. Excitable, you most certainly did not say before that "productivity is a two-way street." You made no such remark until after I made my comment about it. That's when you changed or clarified what you meant, and after I tried to explain what I meant, you fell off the rails (or your meds; whatever ).

As a matter of fact, prior comments of yours in this thread appeared to use the same definition of "productivity" as -I- used:

....
The NEO should be more "productive" we hope. time will tell, as they haven't announced how they plan to operate or base them.
....

I would assume this is an example of a non productive 3 day trip with trip rig. The same 3 day at HAL likely is worth 11-12 hours.

So you might imagine the confusion of a reader who, after seeing you use the word "productivity" with the same exact connotation as I and others generally presume, then sees you post this comment, shouted, unequivocal, no-room-for-interpretation (and then followed by more condescension):

....
PRODUCTIVITY TO THE AIRLINE MANAGERS IS MONEY OUT OF YOUR POCKET AND INTO THEIRS.
....

Especially since your snarky comment was in response to, and actually quoted something that Dicko had said, which was specifically about Southwest's "productivity." Sitting on one's ass on long layovers is not generally a concern at SWA, and "productivity" means exactly what people think it means--work density per work day.

And then you basically lose your sh1t when someone points this out, and dares question your opinion? You want to talk about rigs and not having to work as many days for your 70 hrs? Then you should probably phrase it that way. By all means, HA25, get your rigs. Get those rigs that protect pilots with un-productive trips. And maybe you could try to be a little clearer with you word choice for those of us who aren't actually you.

Bubba

P.S. By the way, nice job with the smart-ass editing of my actual quote. Very professional of you.

 

[SWA Bubba]

By the nature of our flying, and most international flying, you can't fly "denser" trips. There are no connecting trips nor time under FAR 117 to make working longer during a trip a possibility. So the only way to be more productive is to work additional trips which means giving up days off.

According to my friend who is a junior 767 FO at AA, it is the same for them. Delta and United have the day minimum.

And you were sort of right in your other post. It's not just a SWA and regional thing. Your view of more productivity would work for most majors in their domestic flying. But a very significant portion of their pilots are flying international and not domestic. You have to protect the international pilots and you can't have a contract that favors one group with rigs while leaving the other out. So that makes SWA unique among the majors in being able to increase productivity across the board your way.

Thanks for the polite response.

It certainly makes sense about long-haul and international flying, especially for less-frequent destinations where long layovers are unavoidable. And that's exactly why rigs are important--to incentivize the company to make pairings "productive," and to compensate pilots when then just cannot. Southwest generally doesn't fall into this category (at least not yet), but we also have pretty good rigs to keep the company making productive pairings until that point.

Good luck.

Bubba

 

[General Lee]

Man alive, you guys are kickin each other's butts....

Bubba doesn't fly long haul, and therefore doesn't really understand the operation aspects. Southwest may have 14 flights a day between Ontario and Sacramento, but Hawaiian may have only one flight a day between HNL and OAK that gets in late and leaves early back to Hawaii, necessitating a 30 hour layover. That's just the way it is, and at DL each day is worth a minimum of 5:15, meaning that 3 day is worth a min of 15:45. If I understand Jim and HA25, that 3 day to OAK might be worth 11 hours instead of 15:45, and that means at least one more additional 3 day trip per month compared to 5 per month at DL. Hopefully the HA pilots will push for that min day in their upcoming contract, but we can see why HA wouldn't like that, they'd have to hire more pilots and pay more benefits. Not all HA Widebody trips are like that (Asia longhaul and NYC flights are probably great and productive), but there are enough West Coast 3 day trips to ask for this change.


Bubba and some other Corndogs don't want to understand other types of airlines with different types of flying because to them, the other types just don't matter. Give them five legs to Lubbock or Islip each day, and that's all they need. Well, not everyone does that or wants to do that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Tanker Clown]

So SWA has 5:45 guarantee and Song has a 5:15 guarantee. And General Bill is giving the Southwest grief? Maybe he should be thankful those guys held the line while guys like him gave away the store to avoid bankruptcy.

Man, McKinnell math is dumb.

 

[redflyer65]

Southwest gets a MINIMUM of 6.5 per day or 19.5 for a 3 day.....MINIMUM.

Makes Delta's rig look like chump change unfortunately. That's why mid level SW FO's top DL widebody rates consistently. Sad but true.

Pay is one thing, work rules are another. Hopefully DL can work on both.

 

[redflyer65]

Bubba and some other Corndogs don't want to understand other types of airlines with different types of flying because to them, the other types just don't matter. Give them five legs to Lubbock or Islip each day, and that's all they need. Well, not everyone does that or wants to do that.



Bye Bye---General Lee

You don't seem to understand Genny. I don't care where I fly as long as they pay me accordingly. Which in the end is more than you...and I'm home more. Good luck trying the raise the bar.....tool.


PS - Why are you still here GL? Seriously.....leave.

 

[HA25]

Southwest gets a MINIMUM of 6.5 per day or 19.5 for a 3 day.....MINIMUM.

Makes Delta's rig look like chump change unfortunately. That's why mid level SW FO's top DL widebody rates consistently. Sad but true.

Pay is one thing, work rules are another. Hopefully DL can work on both.

That should be industry standard rig. 19.5 for 3 days.