1984 or 2004? Where are we headed?

[FL000]

I wish I had time to put in quotes all the ridiculous statments in this thread. Y'all are hopeless. How soon we forget.

 

[PilotV]

I agree.... Too many times do people forget about what has caused us to come to this point. Many people seem to get too caught up in the 'Now' and either forget or refuse to remember the history of our current events and situation.

People like to think it is only about one singular thing, they get completely wrapped up in that one topic and allow themselves to get infuriated because of it:
- Bush hates Saddam
- U.S. wants oil
- Retribution
- Economic stimulus
- Re-election fodder


The fact is, none of us know ALL of the details. We go off chanting in our parades and sit-ins, yet only knowing one little part of the truth. I am all for free speech and I respect those that exercise that right. What I don't respect are the fools in search of a cause (or march). I'm not trying to wave a flag in your face or call anyone unpatriotic, just think about what your saying before you say it.

Does Bush hate Saddam? Probably.
Does the U.S. want better oil rights? Probably.
Does the U.S. seek retribution? Most likely.
Does the U.S. need some economic stimulus? Absolutely!
Is Bush looking to pad his re-election portfolio? Who knows!

Point is, anyone that feels that they can answer any of these questions with an absolutely definitive answer is kidding themselves!

Allow me to draw a poor analogy.... would you expect a student pilot to do well in an ATP oral? NO! They just don't have all the information to do it. Difference is....they know it.

Remember, your passengers rely on you to make the right decision when it comes to flying because that's what you were trained for. Would you want a passenger to come up to the flight deck and tell you how to do your job or what decision you should make regarding your fuel management? Of course not, and why not? Because they don't know all the facts.

The general public gets a shred of information and they run with it till they mutate it into something it never was. Then they get mad about it.

So, let's stop all this specualtion and finger pointing. If you have an opinion, state it as such. Don't misconstrue facts to form an unstable soap box for you to stand on.

My opinion:

We need to remember one thing. We're all working together here...and yes, I mean as a nation. We're all going to have to live together here for our years to come and we need to make the best of this place. It's a great country...all of us think that...if you didn't, you wouldn't be here. I think the powers that be are simply doing what they think is best in order to keep it a great country.


Just my humble opinion....

 

[tarp]

Ifly:

Couldn't agree with you more. Some folks need to buy Mr. Orwell's book and do some reading instead of listening to the "newspeak" coming out of the TV sets. We have the greatest country and the best document in the world that allows for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". We need to question authority and go back to very simple rules.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

"This is the first time in American history that we have had a police force operated by the Federal government who has the authority to oversee every aspect of our daily lives and can act with unchecked power as they report to no one"

The TSA doesn't oversee any of my daily life. I don't give a crap if they review my flight plan and I don't give a crap if they watch me drive my car down the highway. I have only flown once on an airline since they have been around and they were pleasant and painless.

Like someone else said, it is simply amazing how quickly we forget. In the months after 11 September, it was hard for me to go to lunch off base in uniform without someone paying my check for me. Because I was a "defender of freedom". It didn't take long for the PA phone lines to go from calls of appreciation and support to noise complaints. Americans blame the Federal government for the events of 11 September but when the government tries to prevent a similar tragedy, people like ifly4food are crying conspiracy. Make up your minds!! Do you want a watchdog or do you want airplanes crashing into buildings? I'll take the watchdog.

And as far the prospect of war, ifly4food, YGTBSM!!!! You have no idea what this war is about. How many times has Iraq violated the cease fire agreement in the last 12 years? How many UAV's have they shot down in the portions of airspace in Iraq that are essentially ours as a part of the agreement ending the Gulf War? How many times have American and British aircraft been fired upon in the last 12 years enforcing the no-fly zones? How much oil has Saddam smuggled out of his country? How much of those profits were used to better the lives of Iraqi's? How much is our military being battered by having to constantly monitor him? If we left, how long would it take for him to try and take Kuwait again and keep marching on into Saudi Arabia? What happens to people in Iraq that publicly speak out against Saddam?

I don't know the answers to all of the those questions and I could keep asking more until this board wouldn't let me type anymore. I guarantee you that our President has a very good handle on the answers to every one of those questions and a whole lot more dealing with Saddam. So stick to flying airplanes and stop making up for your ignorance by simply pointing fingers. The reason you don't know a lot is because it is in this nations best interest for you not to know. You can choose to berate elected officials or you can trust that they do in fact have your best interests at heart and let them do their job. I applaud our President for his incredible restraint. In the past, we have seen attacks on other coutries simply to divert attention away from other things. If he were trying to do that or go in for personal reasons, this war would have started a long time ago.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

OK. Let's say the reasons for the war are "pure". How about IFF's other comments regarding the "Orwellian" society?
There are so many things that are traceable today than twenty years ago. How many people use cash any more? Your credit card or your debit card numbers are just a bunch of numbers that tie into your big brother SSN. Cell phones are traceable, computer viewing is traceable, etc. I was a witness to an auto accident several years ago. The cop didn't even want my name or address, just my big brother SSN.
I hear it from my conservative friends "I don't care if the government watches me because I have nothing to hide". Neither to I. Never committed a crime, don't even have a speeding ticket (yet!). I try to be a good tax paying and law abiding citizen. Yet, my government wants to impose more restrictions and have access to my records without my knowledge or consent. Why? They want me to blindly trust them but they sure don't trust me.
Something is going amuck with our government. They are obsessed with more information and control regarding the masses. The Republicans claim they're for individual rights and the constitution. All I see is more expansion of government and more authority without accountability.
While some may be at peace while Bush is in office what would you think if we got another Clinton (Hillary!!!) in office who had all these big brother agencies at her disposal? Would she use it for the good of mankind? Think not.
Still think this is the best country in the world but we seem to be on an accelerated path to becoming a country that bows and cringes to the whims of big government (and big business). All in the name of peace, safety, and security. We've been on this path for many years and now it is starting to come to a head. It's the put the frog in boiling water analogy...put a frog in a pan of boiling water he'll jump out, put him in warm water and slowly turn up the heat you'll cookém.

 

[ifly4food]

To all who have disagreed with my statements: I am not trying to convince you I am right as I realize this is impossible.

To all who agreed with me: Thank you.

To all who have yet to make an opinion: you are the ones I am speaking to.

1. Big brother.
I am no conspiracy theorist, but look around you. Now compare how much we are watched by the government today compared to 50 years ago. Technological advances have made this possible and it is fed by post 9/11/01 hysteria and parenoia.
I fail to see how anyone can deny this is a concern.

2. The Thought Police (TSA)
What differentiates the TSA from the FBI or any other governmental police force is the lack of Due Process.
If you run afoul of the TSA there are no trials. No proceedings are public. There are no real appeals. This is all in the name of "national security".
Now, the TSA can take even your pilot license away because a pinhead buereauocrat at a checkpoint doesn't like your attitude and decides to get even by declaring you a "security risk".
Watch for this power to expand into loss of driver's licences, travel privilleges, passports, etc. in the future.
At least the FBI must indict you of something and hold a trial before you are penalized.

3. War.
I was speaking of war in general. After years of relative peace we have become a nation bent on waging global war. I am no hippie, but I don't feel we should be waging war in Iraq or N. Korea.
I contend it is due to American ego and a need to show power. It also is intended to focus the American people on a patriotic cause so that we don't question the actions of our government.

However, to those of you who spoke so strongly in support of war with Iraq...
Why is Iraq, more of a threat then N. Korea?
We have shown NO EVIDENCE that Iraq posesses weapons of mass destruction. N. Korea is known to posess enough nuclear material to assemble several warheads in short order and has said they plan to make more. They also posess the missles to attack Japan, China, S. Korea and other neighbors.
Iraq is closely controlled by sanctions and can export nothing except the oil they are allowed to sell. N. Korea is the worlds largest exporter of military technology with this going to 21% of its GDP. It has been caught selling ballistic missiles. These weapons go to the highest bidder and Al Qaida has the cash.
Saddam Hussein is an impotent dictator due to his being disarmed and cash strapped. While he makes great threats, his power is limited to hurting his own people. Kim Jung Il has threatened to wage war on the Korean peninsula and all of his neighbors if provoked by military action or even sanctions. He possesses the weapons, forces, and means to carry out this threat. He also has nothing to lose by doing so.
Saddam Hussein threatened to kill Bush senior. Kim Jung Il has threatened to kill everyone within range of his missles.
It's more than coincidence that Iraq controls one of the world's largest deposits of crude oil. N. Korea has no resources the US is interested in.

So again, I ask, if not for oil and pride, why is Iraq a larger threat to the world than N. Korea?

 

[flywithastick]

So again, I ask, if not for oil and pride, why is Iraq a larger threat to the world than N. Korea?

Where does this stuff about Iraq and it's big influence/impact on energy come from?! With Iraq essentially out of the Western oil picture, (taking out the taxes & correcting for inflation) gasoline prices right now are as low as they've ever been. Where's the big incentive to provide more supply at the cost of a major world conflict, lives of many people and world scrutiny? I don't see it.

Maybe Bush and his cronies just want the oil for themselves. They're going to seize it and put all the land and minerals in their name! No one will notice. No one noticed in '91 when GHWB seized Kuwaits assets. What a deal!!

Why are France, Germany & Russia so opposed to enforcing the UN resolutions? Morality? Nope - money!! They're the one's who do have investment in Iraq. Both weapons and oil production equipment. Who do you think sold them the uranium centrifuges? Germany! Who does Iraq owe big $$ to for weapons and oil production equipment? Russia! Can't link France in here right now - they're just elitist idiots.

 

[TXCAP4228]

To all who have disagreed with my statements: I am not trying to convince you I am right as I realize this is impossible....To all who have yet to make an opinion: you are the ones I am speaking to.

In that case I hope you won't mind if I provide a counter point to those who have not yet made up their mind.

1. Big brother.
I am no conspiracy theorist, but look around you. Now compare how much we are watched by the government today compared to 50 years ago. Technological advances have made this possible and it is fed by post 9/11/01 hysteria and parenoia.
I fail to see how anyone can deny this is a concern.

You are not a conspiracy theorist, but....

Come one. My parking garage has surveilace cameras, my ATM machine has surveilance cameras, the toll booths I drove through to get to work this morning had surveilance cameras, even the 7-11 where I got gas had surveilance cameras. Guess what, no one in the government is putting a "dossier" together on me. No one in the government is infringing on my rights or invading my privacy. I think you are being a little dramatic.

2. The Thought Police (TSA)
What differentiates the TSA from the FBI or any other governmental police force is the lack of Due Process.
If you run afoul of the TSA there are no trials. No proceedings are public. There are no real appeals. This is all in the name of "national security".
Now, the TSA can take even your pilot license away because a pinhead buereauocrat at a checkpoint doesn't like your attitude and decides to get even by declaring you a "security risk".
Watch for this power to expand into loss of driver's licences, travel privilleges, passports, etc. in the future.
At least the FBI must indict you of something and hold a trial before you are penalized.

Again, you're being a little too dramatic IMHO. If you read the statement on denying pilot's certificates, it doesn't say that a security screener can yank it. This is where they research you and decide you may be a terrorist trying to learn how to fly an airplane.

In spite of your being dramtic and exagerating a little, I agree with you that it is unconstitutional to deny due process. I am interested to see how this pans out.

The part about this expanding into travel priveleges and passports and drivers licenses is completely unsubstantiated. If you want people to take that particular statement seriously then please show us any politician or government agency that is even CONSIDERING it. He!!, if you do then I'll start a letter writing ccampaign myself. But otherwise, don't just run around saying the sky is falling.

3. War.
I was speaking of war in general. After years of relative peace we have become a nation bent on waging global war. I am no hippie, but I don't feel we should be waging war in Iraq or N. Korea.
I contend it is due to American ego and a need to show power. It also is intended to focus the American people on a patriotic cause so that we don't question the actions of our government.

1) Do you recall us sending troops to Yugoslavia? or Haiti? Do you recall us shooting missles off at factories in Africa? I don't agree that we have been at relative peace.
2) One of the beauties of America is that you may say anything you want in criticizing the government. You are contending here that America may go to war as a show of ego or power, while I disagree completely. As before, I am prepared to give reasons why I think my position is right. You ought to give reasons why yours is. Just saying so isn't enough to convince your inteded audience (those who have not yet decided).

Why I think my position is right:
A) We DO have evidence from many sources that Iraq has not met its committments to disarm.
B) The president did a pretty good job last night of America's position that we cannot wait for a smoking gun that may be another smoking crater where 3000 Americans were alive just seconds before.
C) It is better to act now and disarm those who would seek to harm us than to wait until they attack us again.
D) The current situation with North Korea is a good example of the prior administration NOT stepping up and taking care of a problem and intead just allowing it to fester. Now, North Korea has possible functioning nuclear weapons with which they are attempting to blackmail us. If we do nothing with Iraq and burry our head in the sand, Iraq will develop into a similar situaiton.
E) If you insist on seeing the evidence of Iraq's noncompliance, be patient. February 5th is not far off.

However, to those of you who spoke so strongly in support of war with Iraq...
Why is Iraq, more of a threat then N. Korea?
We have shown NO EVIDENCE that Iraq posesses weapons of mass destruction. N. Korea is known to posess enough nuclear material to assemble several warheads in short order and has said they plan to make more. They also posess the missles to attack Japan, China, S. Korea and other neighbors.

Iraq is more of a threat than North Korea for 2 reasons:
1) Iraq has USED WMD in the past on its own people and also during the Iran/Iraq war.
2) Iraq has ties to terrorist groups. Ari Fleischer has said previously and Bush said in the State of the Union last night that they have evidence linking Iraq to Al Quaeda. If you don't believe that then believe what the media has reported and what Iraq has acknowledged. They have harbored known terrorists recently - Abu Nidal.

Further, we HAVE shown evidence of Iraq's possession of WMD. Iraq admitted to having them. As part of the UN terms for ending hostilities after GulfWar1, Iraq has to demonstrate compliance in disarmement - ie, IRAQ has the burden of proof. The United Nations decided that, not the USA.

Next, you make a pretty good argument that Iraq is not a threat due to being cash strapped. However, we already know that funds from the sale of oil HAVE been diverted to unacceptable uses. Also, we also know that Iraq is hiding weapons caches that we know existed previously. Bush talked about thousands of tons of biological and chemical agents. Cash strapped or not, THAT is a threat.

Finally, now that North Korea has nukes it is sort of hard to invade isn't it? You see what will happen if we let Iraq get into the same situation?

 

[TXCAP4228]

Where does this stuff about Iraq and it's big influence/impact on energy come from?! With Iraq essentially out of the Western oil picture, (taking out the taxes & correcting for inflation) gasoline prices right now are as low as they've ever been. Where's the big incentive to provide more supply at the cost of a major world conflict, lives of many people and world scrutiny? I don't see it.

Maybe Bush and his cronies just want the oil for themselves. They're going to seize it and put all the land and minerals in their name! No one will notice. No one noticed in '91 when GHWB seized Kuwaits assets. What a deal!!

Why are France, Germany & Russia so opposed to enforcing the UN resolutions? Morality? Nope - money!! They're the one's who do have investment in Iraq. Both weapons and oil production equipment. Who do you think sold them the uranium centrifuges? Germany! Who does Iraq owe big $$ to for weapons and oil production equipment? Russia! Can't link France in here right now - they're just elitist idiots.

Well said, Fly. I'll add this about France: the French have sent commercial flights into Bagdahd in violation of the UN sanctions. Don't know what the purpose was but I remember this being reported in the press.

 

[flywithastick]

Re: TSA

Ifly4food has foresight. What happens now is not the problem. Once it starts, it's going to be tough to stop it.

I totally agree with the comments about Big Brother and infringements on our privacy and personal liberty. Can't say I agree with Ifly4food's thoughts on Bush's intentions in Iraq though.

Oh yeah, and the FBI HAS abused their powers in the past. Take a look at the 1960s...

60's?!?! How about the dozens of women and children gassed, burned and shot at Waco in 1993?!

http://www.rickross.com/graphics/waco_burning.jpg

Then there's Ruby Ridge in '92... Randy Weaver's 14 yr old son was fatally shot in the back by US Marshalls and wife was fatally shot in the neck while holding her baby by an FBI sniper.

http://www.boogieonline.com/revolution/firearms/enforce/rubyridge/

Yea, I'd say the FBI has abused it's powers!