Why is Airways sucking up?

psyops

Active member
Joined
Jan 28, 2002
Posts
31
Total Time
8000
Why are the US Airways pilots sucking up to anyone and everyone? It's because they are just a few weeks away from filing bankruptcy. A move that will release Airways management from the Scope provisions that are strangling the airline. The Airways ALPA pilots know that, and are scrambling to make a deal with anyone in an effort to put off the inevitible. The fact of the matter is that scope relief will either come under negotiated terms, or a judge's terms. Consider the following excerpt from a recent Aviation Daily article:

AVIATION DAILY February 5, 2002
Copyright 2002 by The McGraw Hill Companies, Inc.

Regionals, Low-Fare Airlines
Face Post-Sept 11 Challenge

Regional carriers continue to make growth plans and remain optimistic about the future of the economy and the industry, according to speakers at last week’s Raymond James Growth Airline Conference in New York. Raymond James analyst James Parker said about $1 billion worth of business had shifted to regionals and continues accelerating because of Sept 11. He predicted that fixed-fee contracts are not likely to be substantially altered, even if a major partner goes bankrupt. Parker said fixed-fee contracts are revenue builders and remain part of the solution to profitability problems. Bankruptcy gives the majors more flexibility in their pilot scope provisions to use regionals. While air travel will “largely recover by mid-2002, we do not expect the majors to rebuild to 100% of their pre-Sept 11 flying, which should leave several billion in incremental market share for regional and low-fare airlines over the next few years.”

Parker said low-fare airlines will be the prime beneficiaries of the majors’ capacity reductions “because once airline industry traffic recovers, the majors are expected to bite the bullet on much of their low-priced, discretionary traffic.” Lower priced, discretionary traffic”. Lower priced traffic has become unprofitable for the majors, Parker said, because of rapidly rising labor costs and the proliferation of low-cost airlines, such as Southwest and Jet Blue. Stock prices among the low-fare carriers have climbed since Sept. 10, he said. AirTrans stock as of Jan. 23 was up 4%, Frontiers was up 58%, and Ryanair’s had climbed 321%. United’s stock price, in contrast, dropped 52% and US Airways 56%. US Airways partner Mesa saw its stock price drop 43% in that period, and SkyWest, which flies for United and Delta, had a 13% decline in it’s stock price.

End.

The Airways pilots' world class arrogance has finally come back to bite them in the ass. I can't wait to watch them bleed.
 

RichardFitzwell

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
347
Total Time
7500
psyops said:
Why are the US Airways pilots sucking up to anyone and everyone? It's because they are just a few weeks away from filing bankruptcy.

The Airways pilots' world class arrogance has finally come back to bite them in the ass. I can't wait to watch them bleed.
psyops,

I'm not a USAirway's pilot but I have many friends that are. From what I have seen, they don't have an arrogant pilot group...maybe its you.

I find it morally disgusting that you are so happy these people are loosing their jobs. I hope your world class arrogance comes back to bit you in the ass!!!!!

R.F. :mad:
 

psyops

Active member
Joined
Jan 28, 2002
Posts
31
Total Time
8000
Mr. Fitzwell:

I also know people who are on the Airways seniority list. However, with the exception of one, they forgot where they came from. They should have thought of that, now shouldn't they have?

Take flow through for example. A friend of mine flies for one of the wholly owned subsidiaries. Until this desperate attempt to find jobs for it's furlougees, the Airways MEC (and henceforth their pilot group) refused to offer bi-lateral flow through from the wholly owneds to the mainline. The best that they did was a pathetic offer to put 1 in 6 in each new hire class, waive the $75.00 application fee, (interesting considering they work for the same outfit), and force them to undergo the same simulator and interview screening as everyone else. That was real big of them. Still with no guarantee of hire. That was the thanks they got for supplying those arrogant bastards with passengers for their jets.

Now their balls are in a vise (or at least their most senior pilots country club memberships are) and suddenly they want to talk.

The Airways MEC has spit in the face of the wholly owned subsidiaries for as long as they have been around. Now it's time they got a taste of their own medicine. Let them bleed.

How many of your pals at Airways stood up for the wholly owned pilots? That would be zero.... now wouldn't it?
 

~~~^~~~

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
6,137
Total Time
7,500+
I find it morally disgusting that you are so happy these people are loosing their jobs. I hope your world class arrogance comes back to bit you in the ass!!!!!
ALPA mainline pilots have done everything in their power to limit and destroy the careers of pilots at the group c & d airlines. While I do not condone posts like psyops, I certainly understand why pilots feel that way.

I have been under attack from the Delta MEC since the day I hired in with ASA and candidly, I'm sick of the hypocracy of the mainliners. The Delta guys say we should all be remorseful about Delta mainline furloughs - at the same time ALPA has filed a grievance which would furlough ALPA members at ASA and Comair. Anybody else see the problem with this?
 
Last edited:

NSUDemon

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2001
Posts
22
Total Time
ha!
i would agree with fitzwell, my father and numerous family friends fly for usair and i dont understand why anyone would wanna see such a thing happen to any pilot. my dad busted his ass at airways for 24 years to put a roof over me and my family's head. now im only a 100hr private pilot half way through my commercial so i dont know much about alpa but i do know that my father is well respected and has never acted in an arrogant matter nor have any of his friends, and i dont appreciate anyone critisizing any airline just because they have a run in with a handful of pilots. if that was the case i should hope that all executive pilots lose thier jobs because i have had numerous conflicts with their cocky attitudes but thats a childish excuse to hate these people, the same should go for anyone incuding you.
 

Marko Ramius

Vilnius Nastavnic
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
378
Total Time
25 w/L
~~~^~~~ said:


The Delta guys say we should all be remorseful about Delta mainline furloughs - at the same time ALPA has filed a grievance which would furlough ALPA members at ASA and Comair. Anybody else see the problem with this?
I sure do but it's because you are playing with the facts. If I'm not mistaken the grievance you refer to is where DALPA is contesting their management's interpretation of their contract provisions regarding furloughs, etc. While I know that one of the side effects of winning that grievance could mean ASA and Comair furloughs, that isn't its intent. I know all of this is a springboard for a rant about how you should be able to in on DALPA's negotiations. If that's your belief fine, I know I'm not going to change your view, but please don't twist words around to make your argument because IMO it weakens your position.

Among the many things I don't understand is that if I understand the RJDC correctly, they want to merge the lists, bargain together and then collectively scope ACA and Skywest. Besides the fact I feel that is hypocritical, my question is this: does RJDC believe ACA ALPA should be party to those scope negotiations? After all everybody's ALPA and they believe it's ALPA's responsibility to ensure that member carriers are party to negotiations that affect their pay and working conditions. I am guessing that the answer is no, and that the reason given will lie in the fact that DAL owns ASA and Comair. If that is the answer, that seems at odds with their belief that each ALPA group should be party to negotiations that affect their pay and working conditions. Under this mantra, I am sure the DAL pilots would like to be party to any concession negotiations at UAL!;) Speaking of UAL,one of the next big things for RJDC to jump up and down over will be the outcome of the SJ grievance at UAL mainline. Nobody knows what will happen, but whatever the outcome you can bet that there will be fewer UAX SJ's than planned pre 9/11 until mainline builds their fleet back up to contract levels. When this happens, I'm sure the RJDC will be up in arms, I'm just curious as to what the official reason will be. Since the UAL situation doesn't juxtapose well with the DAL and UsAirways situations, I imagine they will object under the catchall phrase of "harmful scope," and resort to the economic necessity of RJ's "now more than ever," argument( with mock civility for any of us major airline furloughees of course.)
 

RichardFitzwell

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
347
Total Time
7500
"The Airways MEC has spit in the face of the wholly owned subsidiaries for as long as they have been around. Now it's time they got a taste of their own medicine. Let them bleed."

"ALPA mainline pilots have done everything in their power to limit and destroy the careers of pilots at the group c & d airlines."



Do you guys really think those mainline pilots have a hidden agenda to DESTROY OTHER PILOTS' CAREERS?? Maybe like a secrete handshake or password??? Come on.

It's called job perseverance. They are simply trying to protect the jobs they worked hard for by limiting the growth of their competition. Regional growth is proving to be their biggest competition. They are simply trying to survive. No hidden agenda.

R.F.
 

lear24

Country pilot
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
226
Total Time
est
NSUDemon -
I'm sure your dad is a swell guy, but you're not where we are, working at the wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways group. It seems that many mainline pilots at US Airways are unaware that there are wholly owned regionals, let alone that we do not operate jets. As far as we can gather, the MEC and very senior pilots there are mostly responsible for trying to hold us down, and much of the hostility that we feel gets misdirected towards all of the mainline pilots. I am certain that the majority of pilots working for US Airways are decent folks, just trying to make it in this world like all of us. They are not directly responsible for the three wholly owned regionals watching RJ after RJ show up in airports we service operated by the likes of Mesa, Chautauqua, and Trans States Airlines. They are not directly responsible for the MEC proposing flow through agreements with those airlines after Allegheny, Piedmont, and PSA begged for it for years. They are also not directly responsible for us being completely uncertain about our future, as the corporate wording is that "all turboprop flying will be replaced with small jet flying", when we are not allowed to operate jet equipment at all. You can certainly see why the three wholly owned pilots' groups are a little tense about things, I hope. Misdirected hostility doesn't do anyone any good, but anger is a funny thing, you know? It's not cool to watch anyone get furloughed, but when it's from the group of pilots that consistantly holds yours back, you can't feel too bad for them. I wish more mainline pilots were aware of the things that their MEC does to us. Good luck with your commercial, fly safe.

RF-
Trying to limit regional flying to protect a job is great, but why give extra limits to regional flying done by wholly owned carriers? Wording in LOA's specifically limit the wholly owned carriers from operating RJ's. Why not allow US Airways group to make more money and give the whole operation a little more to stand on rather than give RJ flying away to contract carriers? It makes no sense at all. Mainline pilots are not to blame directly, but the mainline MEC sure does some wacky stuff.

While I'm on it, what's up with Shuttle America doing PIT flying? We were told that it was cool for them to be operating Allegheny airplanes because they weren't taking Allegheny routes, and were operating into Hanscom field, which no one else can do. Now they are doing Lynchburg and Toledo? Anyone can do that. Why a contract carrier flying wholly owned airplanes?
 

dogg

it does not matter anyway
Joined
Jan 8, 2002
Posts
308
Total Time
152
here is a thought that no one seems to be checked out on. UAL, AA, DAL, USAIR etc. are not probably ever going to build back to pre 911 schedules, staffing etc. The growth of the parent companies will be at the "regional level" . Primarily because no one wants to fly into and out of big hubs any more. Security will always be an over blown hassle and the ridiculous knee jerk delays at the big hubs will stay now forever. What the traveling public will want to do is go to their small regional airport, get on a regional jet and go to another small regional airport. Bypass the whole big hassle the big hub airports entirely. So any union that intends to hold their parent company down to a set number of airplanes of one type or a set number of pilots or no more sj flying until all furloughed pilots are back in the saddle is going to find themselves flirting with disaster. There is no denying that the growth in the future is either going to be at the regional affiliate level or in the niche players ie jetblue, frontier airtran etc
 

~~~^~~~

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 21, 2001
Posts
6,137
Total Time
7,500+
the reason given will lie in the fact that DAL owns ASA and Comair....Under this mantra, I am sure the DAL pilots would like to be party to any concession negotiations at UAL!
You do not understand the difference between the UAL / DAL relationship - and - the relationship betweeen Delta and Delta Connection? Look - Delta, ASA and Comair are the same employer. United and Delta are not. (Check into the company's position on employees who come to ASA from Delta NOT having to cash out their retirement and roll over their 401K - according to the IRS it is the same employer)

My union is going to my employer and trying to get me furloughed - yes I have a problem with that.
 

JetProp

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 30, 2001
Posts
170
Total Time
10000+
Lear 24:
I'm a PDT guy and we don't get it either. We provide reliable service and do an overall good job for U. I don't understand what benefit U stands to gain by opressing the us and keeping us down. I understand that we make money, even in rough ecomonic times. With RJ's the combined WO's could make a lot more money and provide even better service.

Go to the "D" con in CLT and talk to a gate agent, they will roll their eyes and tell about the unreliable service provided by MESA. One CSA told me "they no-show a lot, if they show up at all"! So, our reward for years of dedicated service is to be slapped in the face?

Seems like their doing ALG with SA, the same way they did PDT with Pot air. I know for a fact U is scared of the WO's forming single carrier.

Many of us are very frustrated and disappionted now.
Regards, JetProp
 

av8instyle

Above Average Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2002
Posts
427
Total Time
7000
Regional growth?

This subject can be discussed for eternity. Here's my opinion:

1-The hub-spoke system will not go away like others have inferred. It's too expensive to alter that system as was proven prior to deregulation.

2-The regionals will always be there but they will never dominate. Using the current state of airport security, let me tell you why the regionals aren't filling many seats: At one major west coast airport it takes 2 hours on some days to get to the TICKET COUNTER. Then add another hour through security. Add to that the time to get to the airport, the cost of the ticket, and the cost of the rental car once you get to your destination. Now, I don't know about you but my guess is that a person that feels unsafe about flying anyway, or even the ones that feel safe, would rather use that 4 hours of airport time and drive to where they want to go. At least it would be cheaper and they'd have a car.

3-The majors will never go away. You can't justify an RJ to take you from SEA-NY, or many other longer, more lucrative markets. They are not able to cross the pond so that alone leaves a lot of flying.

4-The history of commercial aviation has proven time and time again that it will look horrid and eventually prosper. ALPA has fought many battles that seemed not winnable and has usually turned out positive.

Everything that is happening right now is a result of the economy, with 9-11 being merely an accelerator. It will turn around, and when it does, make sure your apps are updated.

P.S. SWA is a good bet right now and the company management is doing good things. But in 04 the profits will decrease due to a huge increase in pilot compensation and the addition of a retirement. This does not mean the company will go the way of USAir, it means the profits will shrink a little. This is the natural progression for a growing airline.

Good Luck.
 

Tim47SIP

Serving for the USofA
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Posts
1,157
Total Time
10,000
Richard wrote "It's called job perseverance. They are simply trying to protect the jobs they worked hard for by limiting the growth of their competition. Regional growth is proving to be their biggest competition. They are simply trying to survive. No hidden agenda"

Rich, that is the whole problem with all of the majors. Every one who has the type of scope that is supposed to protect them by limiting growth, has made it extreemly dificult for the company to stay profitable. This Ostrich approach is what is going to kill ALPA in the long run. Here is a deffinition:

1. A large, swift-running flightless bird (Struthio camelus) of Africa, characterized by a long bare neck, small head, and two-toed feet. It is the largest living bird.

2. One who tries to avoid disagreeable situations by refusing to face them.

Since we are not talking about big birds here, the second deffinition is the key as ALPA continues to keep their hands over their eyes, and scream out the union chant so they dont have to hear or see what is going on arround them. Status Quo - You know! The industry is going to change with or without them. They can fight all they want, but filing for Ch13 will result in a much easier game plan for management (they can throw out the contract) if it comes down to it. United and US are just about there.

Marco wrote "Speaking of UAL,one of the next big things for RJDC to jump up and down over will be the outcome of the SJ grievance at UAL mainline. Nobody knows what will happen, but whatever the outcome you can bet that there will be fewer UAX SJ's than planned pre 9/11 until mainline builds their fleet back up to contract levels. "
So explain to me how exactly is this good for anyone? The company continues to bleed money, more furloughs occure, and the RJ operators move into financial ruin. Forcing a company to spend more money (it doesn't have) on more large aircraft it cant fill, and not allowing it to expand its feeders for market dominance is assenine. Great scope! Contract or no contract, mainline is not going to "preserve the industry" here, it is going to take it down little by little. Personnaly, I think you will see the oposite here with probability of Ch13 filing for relief of it's own pilot contracts (concerning US and United).

Every major with limiting scope is having problems gaining market share and profitability. Delta seems to be surviving better than most becasue it pretty much is ignoring the contract guidelines (which has been grieved by DALPA last week). It doesn't take a genious to see what is happening to the industry. It is in a metamorphasis and can not go back to pre 911 structures. Mainline will grow, but not for a few years while WO's will grow considerably now and peak out in a couple of years once the markets have settled. Mainlines real enemy is not the RJ expansion, it is SW, ATA, Jet Blue etc. I continuously here that the regionals are the problem (sometimes called scabs) because we accept jobs for less money, yet no one says anything about the low paid pilots of SW, ATA, jet Blue, etc. which is causing the low cost tickets that AA (APA), DAL, CO, NW, U and US have to meet.

Fins, I really dont think you will see many furloughs at DCI because of the astronomical training costs associated with it. Although I dont think that they will win their grievance, in the event that they do, there will probably be a shift in DCI expansion to mainline, i.e. 70 seater stuff. Hey, but what about that operational inigration stuff over the last two years. What will ALPA do about that? Probably go back to deffinition #2 above.
 

TWA Dude

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
3,666
Total Time
9999+
I must be crazy to jump into this hornet's nest, but I guess pilots just do this kind of thing sometimes.

People are taking this stuff too personally. Those who said it's just about preserving jobs at our own airlines are right on the money. Mainlines guys (rightly or wrongly) feel that RJs are a threat to their jobs. Here at AMR the APA's refusal to relax scope is indirectly leading to more Eagle furloughs. I certainly don't blame the Eagle guys for being bitter, but it's not a matter pilots vs. pilots; it's APA vs. management and Eagle vs. management.

I understand the frustration of the USAir WO's not having jets and that the USAir MEC's policies indirectly resulted in the non-WOs getting jets. But it's a mistake to think that just because everyone falls under the USAir Group umbrella that pilots need to favor each other. As badly as the WO's feel they're being treated, the USair pilots don't owe them anything.

BLAME MANAGEMENT! They're the ones who get to sit back grinning at all the bickering. Mind you management couldn't care less who flies their freakin' airplanes; they just wanna make a profit. Bottom line: unions get in the way of profits. 'nuff said.
 

Tim47SIP

Serving for the USofA
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Posts
1,157
Total Time
10,000
TWA Dude wrote "Mind you management couldn't care less who flies their freakin' airplanes; they just wanna make a profit. Bottom line: unions get in the way of profits. 'nuff said."

You are 100% correct! Hence my previous post. P.S. I think the furloughs are a direct result not an indirect result.
 

RichardFitzwell

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
347
Total Time
7500
Thanks for elaborating TWA Dude. Many mainline pilots are afraid of loosing what they have. If management could, I feel they would do away with the majority of domestic mainline flying and pass it all on to the RJ.

For example, let's use a RJ Captain making $50K, a F/O making $25K, and a couple F/As making $18K hauling around 90 PAX. That's a total income of $111,000. An airline has got to make money at that rate. BUT there are still thousands of pilots out there that would kill to fly those fancy RJs for that kind of money. So let's say a couple years from now management decides to start a 'B' scale pay system at the regionals. WOW! Think how much more money they could make if they had captains willing to fly 90 PAX around making $25K, FOs making $18, etc. Where will it end???

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight. Show some dignity in the profession we have worked so hard to succeed in. Show support in the profession many mainline pilots are trying to save. When I was flying for the regionals, I had no intention of staying there. My sights were set on flying big airplanes at the major pay scale. Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.

R.F.
 

surplus1

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 21, 2002
Posts
5,649
Total Time
25K+
RichardFitzwell said:
Thanks for elaborating TWA Dude. Many mainline pilots are afraid of loosing what they have.
Looks like many regional pilots are equally afraid of loosing what they have. It may not be much but it IS all that they have right now.

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight.
As long as there are labor unions unwilling to support the efforts of those who fly for less to fly for more, you are right. At present the "haves" do nothing to support the "have nots". On the contrary, their efforts are directed at eliminating them all together.

Show some dignity in the profession we have worked so hard to succeed in. Show support in the profession many mainline pilots are trying to save.
You got to be kidding. Mainline pilots are NOT trying to preserve the "profession". They are trying to preserve their jobs. The method they have chosen is to eliminate the jobs of regional pilots. Those regional pilots (while they may aspire to become mainline pilots) have kids and families to feed just like their mainline counterparts. They are equal members of "the profession" and are simply defending their own jobs.

This mess was created by mainline pilots and the labor union that they totally control. Management has taken full advantage of it.
Now the mainline pilots and their union, instead of trying to correct the problem they created, are making it worse by attempting to do more of what they have already done wrong.

Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.
R.F.
Are we on the same planet? Mainline pilots have consistently opposed, by every possible means (legal and illegal), ALL efforts by regional pilots to stick together. Especially the concept of a single seniority list (SSL). Mainline pilot leaders have gone so far as to force the labor union they control to violate its duty of fair representation in their efforts to obstruct the legitimate claims of regional pilots and continue to stifle all prospects of unity. They won’t even discuss it.

In this atmosphere you call for unity? Just what would you have regional pilots do? Resign and give their jobs to furloughed mainline pilots? Looks like that's the course mainline pilots have set for their ship. On that basis it will founder on the rocks.

My friend, mainline pilots have made their own bed. If they now have to lie in it well, that's just too bad. Want unity? Then start by recognizing that regional pilots are also airline pilots. We all belong to the SAME profession buddy (whether you all like that or not)! Maybe its time for mainline pilots to get a reality check.

Best wishes.
 
Last edited:

TWA Dude

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
3,666
Total Time
9999+
RichardFitzwell said:
If management could, I feel they would do away with the majority of domestic mainline flying and pass it all on to the RJ.
That's the environment today. Recall that just two years ago mainline fleets were growing mightely as well. Mainline flying is far from capped in terms of growth.

Think how much more money they could make if they had captains willing to fly 90 PAX around making $25K, FOs making $18, etc. Where will it end???
Simple supply vs. demand economics will dictate how it all ends up. IMHO the future involves the merging of commuter and mainline seniority lists. I have no conceptual difficulty in seeing RJ salaries rise with a corresponding decrease in mainline salaries; thus keeping management happy. This won't all happen at once.

As long as there are people willing to fly airplanes cheaper and management trying to increase shareholder profits there will be no end in sight.
Human nature and business nature is as it is. Our industry is special to us but it doesn't differ so much from other professions.

Without pilots on all levels sticking together (SSL), the majors will shrink away to nothing and the regionals will be the ONLY step to flying PAX.
That's pretty pessimistic. The majors still have the lower CASM so as long as people keep flying they be okay.
 

TWA Dude

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
3,666
Total Time
9999+
surplus1 said:

This mess was created by mainline pilots and the labor union that they totally control. Management has taken full advantage of it.
Now the mainline pilots and their union, instead of trying to correct the problem they created, are making it worse by attempting to do more of what they have already done wrong.
You have a point. Mainline unions were very slow to recognize the benefit to mainline flying that RJs represent. More feed = more big jet flying. Now mainline pilots look at Delta with it's "unrestrained" RJ growth at Comair/ASA as the poster child for weak scope. But how bad off are the Delta pilots compared to the other majors right now? I think they're doing fine.

Forgive me for sounding anti-union for a moment, but I think it's short-sighted that unions concentrate so heavily on maintaining maximum members on the payroll to the parent company's detriment. If a route can't support a mainline jet then why do unions insist that they must? I believe unions must moderate their tough stance on scope to keep with the times. Having said that, any such concession MUST have an ironclad snap-back provision. It's not right that management comes to unions for quick concessions when times are tough, yet when times are good they stonewall for years before sharing the wealth.
 

rjcap

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
715
Total Time
zip
TWADUDE,

One correction to your statement.

"Mainline unions were very slow to recognize the benefit to mainline flying that RJs represent. More feed = more big jet flying."

Regionals are not entirely "feeders." We eliminate the need for the hub and spoke system. Point to point service is the future.
 
Top