Whe are you considered established?

[328dude]

This question came up in a sim session not long ago. If your givin a hold that requires a entry other than a direct, when are you considered established? Once the entry begins or when you pass the fix?

Couldn't find it in the FARS. I really didn't look that hard though.

Anyone, Anyone?

 

[mckpickle]

dont quote me but I think it's the first turn outbound.?.?.?

 

[Chunk]

My guess (and that's what it is) would be passing the fix/facility into protected airspace.


It's technically not a required report.

Chunk

 

[avbug]

Established, for air traffic control purposes, means to be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc.

Until you've passed the fix, you're in transition to the fix. You are not yet established in holding until you have reached the holding fix. It is from the holding fix that the entry must be commenced, indicating that this is the start of the hold. Therefore, one cannot be established in holding until reaching the fix.

 

[Chunk]

Yeah...wait...didn't I say that?

 

[mckpickle]

Established, for air traffic control purposes, means to be stable or fixed on a route, route segment, altitude, heading, etc.

Until you've passed the fix, you're in transition to the fix. You are not yet established in holding until you have reached the holding fix. It is from the holding fix that the entry must be commenced, indicating that this is the start of the hold. Therefore, one cannot be established in holding until reaching the fix.

Although I do agree isnt this just "entering" the hold? I dont think you would be established just crossing the fix say on a TD or PA entry. Ideas?

 

[dogg]

You are "established" abeam the fix on your first turn in hold on the holding side....You have "entered" the hold when you cross over the fix for the first time while performing your holding pattern entry..

 

[Chunk]

Dogg,

Do you have a reference?

Chunk

 

[bobbysamd]

Crossing the fix

My vote would be at the time you cross the holding fix and are entering the hold. The airspace is protected for you at that point.

We had extended debates on the subject at Riddle.

Chunk is correct that, technically, per the FARs, entering holding is not a required report unless you are in a non-radar environment. But, I recall, that the AIM still recommends it. So, if the AIM recommends it, it is good enough for me.

 

[ksus]

Fly Chicago has the correct answer, you are established
when you cross the fix.

fly safe!!!!