USA Today -- Airline Employment

[secks]

I can't put a dollar amount on my sacrifices I put in over the years, but I will say it's a lot. Considering what I put up with, I'm not going to sell out, especially if the money is there.

Fine, don't sell out. Just don't prevent me from working for what I feel I'm worth. By the way, nobody cares what you've put up with besides you, especially in the airline industry. All that matters to your employer is the number of years you've put in there. I'm not saying it's a good system, but that's the way it is with unions.

It sounds like you could care less about your worth, and that's fine. We are all entitled to our own opinions.

Right, so I don't care about what I'm worth because I see something wrong with grown men complaining over a six figure salary in a market as competitive as this? You're not making sense here. The problem is that you're confusing "personal value" with "market value".

BTW, when the trucking industry drives the railroads into bankruptcy, don't come crying to me. It's because they are working for far less and being more efficient than trains. But of course, I'm sure you'll understand.

Listen, don't bother telling me anything about the RR industry. Locomotives are several times more efficient than trucks. Haven't you wondered why RR stocks have been skyrocketting recently? High oil prices prevent trucks from competing like they used to. Also, trucks benefit from using an infrastructure which is subsidized by taxpayers (roads). RRs do not benefit from this (rail lines are privately built & maintained), although they should. The only reason RRs haven't spanked long haul truckers into the ground is the lack of infrastructure and relatively cheap diesel prices until recently.

What's insulting is people like you who think that guys like me just walked into a job like this. Yes, I make over $90K flying a 767, but don't you think for one minute that it was handed to me on a silver platter.

Don't put words in my mouth. I never implied that you walked into the job. What I do claim is that the hardships you've endured to get there don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to what you're really worth on the market. Your manager doesn't care, your passengers don't care. All that matters is your ability to move cargo/people from point A to B.

The problem is people like yourself who are unmotivated and too lazy to bust your ball$ to EARN something like this. Your only recourse is to insult those who have made it. And yes, by reading your above posts, I believe this is a valid statement.

Where do you get this crap? I've earned two engineering degrees on my own dime and make a comfortable living. Care to make any further speculations on my personal life?

 

[Clyde]

Fine, don't sell out. Just don't prevent me from working for what I feel I'm worth. By the way, nobody cares what you've put up with besides you, especially in the airline industry. All that matters to your employer is the number of years you've put in there. I'm not saying it's a good system, but that's the way it is with unions.


Right, so I don't care about what I'm worth because I see something wrong with grown men complaining over a six figure salary in a market as competitive as this? You're not making sense here. The problem is that you're confusing "personal value" with "market value".


Listen, don't bother telling me anything about the RR industry. Locomotives are several times more efficient than trucks. Haven't you wondered why RR stocks have been skyrocketting recently? High oil prices prevent trucks from competing like they used to. Also, trucks benefit from using an infrastructure which is subsidized by taxpayers (roads). RRs do not benefit from this (rail lines are privately built & maintained), although they should. The only reason RRs haven't spanked long haul truckers into the ground is the lack of infrastructure and relatively cheap diesel prices until recently.


Don't put words in my mouth. I never implied that you walked into the job. What I do claim is that the hardships you've endured to get there don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to what you're really worth on the market. Your manager doesn't care, your passengers don't care. All that matters is your ability to move cargo/people from point A to B.


Where do you get this crap? I've earned two engineering degrees on my own dime and make a comfortable living. Care to make any further speculations on my personal life?

Hey, Casey Jones:

Isn't BNSF on the verge of filing bankruptcy, if they haven't all ready? Trucking is MORE efficient and will always be MORE profitable.

If you made six figures would you be angry at yourself?

Two engineering degrees. Congratualtions!! I'll sleep a little better tonight knowing that.

 

[Clyde]

Hey Secks,

I almost forgot. You mentioned subsidies and funding by taxpayers. Care to discuss Amtrak? How about Conrail?

How's UP doing? Heard a rumor that their biggest client (a well-known trucking company) stopped using them to piggy-back their trailers on their cars.

 

[Flybet3]

ok I have to say

Ok I have to say something....20k a year is NOT acceptable, but you have to bite the bullet...were did you older, spoiled, greedy, pay me a million to fly b&stards start out? didnt the regionals pay crap before? the regionals have always paid crap...and they always will, but if you love to fly you have to bite the bullet. Plus 7K a month is pretty good, 14K at SWA is very good money. All you idiots saying that 150K a year is not good, then ya'll can kiss my A$$. Is 300K better than 150K? or even 60K? hell yeah!!!!. But you can still make a good living making 150K....you can still buy a house, enjoy a new car, a many other things....so stop being sooooo **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** greedy and saying that 150K is working for penuts, b/c SWA, AWA, and JB pilots dont seem to care. 150K is the reason why SWA is in and Delta, AA, USA, UA are out. So either learn how to make a living with 150K or 60K a year or get out and start buying lottery tickets....b/c if 150k is penuts, then I am one of the many that would be very happy to work for those penuts! Rather make 60K to 150K doing what I love, than make 300K doing something I dont like!

 

[pilotyip]

Luck and timing

"The problem is people like yourself who are unmotivated and too lazy to bust your ball$ to EARN something like this."

For those who have made it to the top of the hill and feel it is only due to their skill and motivation, GET REAL!! The element of luck and timing carries a far greater weight in a pilot's success than anyone cares to admit. The god’s gift to the aviation world attitude is entirely misplaced. You do not have the control over your life that you thing you do. If you applied for a job during a hiring boom like 68, 78, 88, 98, you would find it easy to get a job. If you were trying to get a job in 73, 83, 93, or 03, you would find a far different story. You were a pilot at SWA in 00 and got turned down by AA, you would be one lucky SOB, you were alternate at an AirTran class in 98 becasue they could not fill the class, and you were never offered an interview anywhere else. Luck and timing have more to do with success than most pilots care to admit.

 

[Flybet3]

Yeah!!!!

"The problem is people like yourself who are unmotivated and too lazy to bust your ball$ to EARN something like this."

For those who have made it to the top of the hill and feel it is only due to their skill and motivation, GET REAL!! The element of luck and timing carries a far greater weight in a pilot's success than anyone cares to admit. The god’s gift to the aviation world attitude is entirely misplaced. You do not have the control over your life that you thing you do. If you applied for a job during a hiring boom like 68, 78, 88, 98, you would find it easy to get a job. If you were trying to get a job in 73, 83, 93, or 03, you would find a far different story. You were a pilot at SWA in 00 and got turned down by AA, you would be one lucky SOB, you were alternate at an AirTran class in 98 becasue they could not fill the class, and you were never offered an interview anywhere else. Luck and timing have more to do with success than most pilots care to admit.

Well said...you know I hear these complaint when I worked for AA on the ramp....BAGGAGE HANDLERS!!! complaining that $22 an Hour wasnt enough! Guys with only a high school diploma! and saying that they deserved more money, when all the low seniority guys did all the work! low seniority guys like me making 8.05hr....all you candy a$$es saying that the industry in underpaid at 100K a year are full of SH!T. Guys like you are the ones sucking companies dry! and driving them to bankruptcy, when unions and companies request that pilots take pay cuts and all you greedy d!cks say no...so shut up, suck it up this industry is tough, DEAL WITH IT!!! 100K is more than enough especially if you are an FO!

 

[schafjet]

"Guys like you are sucking companies dry" GIVE ME A BREAK

With all the pay cuts and concessions, I don't think anyone is sucking these companies dry, except maybe the oil companies and an administration that can't get a handle on said oil prices either because they can't or won't. This isn't a Bush bashing, just an observation. This airline implosion is said to be as bad or worse than the savings and loan debacle of the late 80's early 90's and yet neither candidate has said a word about it.

Labor is not the problem. Let me repeat this; Labor is not the problem. If anything we have been a small part of the solution. When pilots were making these great salaries, they were able to negotiate these salries. Why? Because at the time the companies could afford it and were making profits and hiring like crazy. Now? Labor is the problem. No. Labor has come to the table, taken concessions to help out and the thanks they get is that they are told they are greedy ba$tards and are paid too much.

I can't believe some of your attitudes. Never sell yourself short and say I am only worth 100k or 60k. You may be right for now, but you are only shooting yourself in the foot down the road when things may get better. They wouldn't pay you if they couldn't afford you. Do you think Shaq would ever say... "This is great, I love this game, I'd play for 100k." Is he worth millions for playing a game? Of course not. Is it right? Of course not. Then why does he make what he makes? Because the market can afford it. Get paid what you can and don't tell me that labor is bleeding these companies dry, because we are not. The airlines have deeper problems than just labor and until they confront those problems they will continue to fall by the wayside.

 

[Publishers]

labor

To blame labor for the problems is wrong. To say labor is not part of the problem is equally wrong. It is an element just like everything else.

Business are always gone into on the basis that they will continually grow and prosper. Hardly anyone of them says-- we will get to this spot and stop.

There are three elements that impact companies severely and change that.
1. Technology changes-- flying versus train - internet
2. World political and economic scene like oil prices
3. Government regulation

The airline business is impacted more than most by all three of these. I personally do not think the airlines would ever have been effectively unionized in the first place except for the fact they were regulated.

Dealing with organized labor has impacted the industry and to ignore that aspect is simply fooling yourself with your own value. It impacts the supply demand effects, it is harder to react to changes in the elements above, and it rewards time served in a business that does not value it.

You are all right that it is but a small part of the equation, much less than the chest thumping would indicate, but it is a part.

If you do not think that serious change can wipe out your employment, ask travel agents how things are going. Ask some of the old railroad guys.

 

[46Driver]

"Guys like you are sucking companies dry" GIVE ME A BREAK

With all the pay cuts and concessions, I don't think anyone is sucking these companies dry, except maybe the oil companies and an administration that can't get a handle on said oil prices either because they can't or won't. This isn't a Bush bashing, just an observation.

Go here to take a look at oil trends: http://www.feasta.org/documents/energy/oilpricetrends.pdf

You will see that worldwide demand continues to increase in large part due to "unstoppable energy demands by key, large population, fast growing economies including China, India, Brazil, Pakistan, Iran, and Turkey." Nothing Bush, Kerry, Greenspan, Santa Claus, or Homer Simpson can due about the overall trends of escalating demand, and therefore price, of oil.

 

[capt. megadeth]

"Guys like you are the ones sucking companies dry! and driving them to bankruptcy"

OMG! You are a executive's wet dream...

Ya, my $45K a year for flying 90+ hours a month is sucking the life out of my company