Steps to get into the majors and timeline

[Ty Webb]

Alternately, you could use a glacier as a sort of crude timepiece.

You, sir, you are killing me.

 

[PastFastMover]

Mooney,

If you still choose to pursue the airlines as a career, I won't sit here and talk you out of it. Just keep in mind, the job that you would traditionally acquire to build hours, may be the place you end up retiring from. So, when you look to go somewhere shy of a major, you may want to ask two questions: 1: is this a place I CAN retire from, and 2: is this a place I would like to stay until I retire.

Personally, if I were starting out in aviation today, I wouldn't fly anywhere as a career unless it were in the military. Otherwise, I would find a career that would provide a high return on my education investment and take up flying as a hobby. Hope this helps, and just my $0.02.

Mooney,

Reread what Clyde wrote above very very carefully. He stated it exactly the way it is. It is currently a race to the bottem in this career. There is no thinning of the herd. The current BK'ed companies management are taking the employees pay and retirement to stay in biz a few more months, essentially burning the furniture to just keep going (I might add while keeping their huge salarys, bonuses, and guaranteed retirements in BK or out). The LCC's appear to be doing well, but the pilots are now in a job not a career, working for lower pay, crappy work rules, little or no retirement other than 401K , to simply be in a flying job. The commuter pilots are straining at the bit to fly the next bigger aircraft for peanuts, and many not realizing that that will only guarantee the lowering of the bar even further. Once the commuters fly these larger aircraft for peanuts, the majors will become International carriers only and get their feed from them. That step from flight instructing to commuters to majors just came to an abrupt end. I am currently at the end of my career and have advised my kids to go another direction. The results of airline deregulation that was forced through by the lawyers in 1978 is finally taking hold. Unfortunately an airline seat is now a commodity, the only careers in this industry are in management.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Another question would be what is your definition of a major? Also, will that major still be a major by the time you meet the quals? That's where a crystal ball comes in handy. Another potential reality is that the next generation (who knows how many years away) of commercial aircraft may only require one pilot.
While llowwelll is correct there are a bunch of jobs out there, and some people may actually enjoy them, I speculate most people work because they have to. It's not a vocation that they really enjoy. Try to find/do something that interest you - and is legal! - and hopefully the green will be there. If not, be your own bossman if possible.

 

[ATA73Pilot]

Run..don't walk to a different career.

Read, reread, and then read lowell's post a third time..hell..print it out and tack it to your desk.

Timing and luck mean everything in the career progression of an airline pilot. You can't plan your way to a successful career in the airline industry. You are at the mercy of factors you have no control over at all turns in your career.

I am now 41 and the thought of 20 more years of bag dragging, hotels, 0500 showtimes, red-eyes, 14-hour duty days, living in crashpads and commuting, angry, bitter, old FA's, myopic management, TSA manned security checkpoints, holidays away from home and family, little to no retirement, yadda, yadda, yadda, just fills me with a sense of dread.

Do I like flying airplanes...I love it....but the bulls&^t you have to endure just for the time behind the wheel becomes a huge negative when the shine wears off.

The future holds less pay, more work, career instability and less days off for a potential airline wanna-be.

I just have to look at the 50+ year old former Captains at USAirways that are now in the right seat enjoying significantly less money and decreased seniority benefits to realize I don't want to be in the same position.

Hell...my company will end up the same way if they are lucky....10 - 15 year Captains downgraded to FO's because this industry is beyond common sense in how it operates. I myself (along with potentially 700 others at ATA) am facing life on the street after almost 7 years here and the seniority to hold a Captain's slot on any of our airplanes.

Sorry for another negative viewpoint but I wish someone had told me this 20 years ago before I wasted my prime working years.

I know what you are feeling right now in your quest for the "big iron" but trust me when I tell you the price is far to high to pay for the chance that you might make a career out of it.

Playing the lottery has better odds....

Good Luck in your choice.

 

[Ty Webb]

Mooney,

The LCC's appear to be doing well, but the pilots are now in a job not a career, working for lower pay, crappy work rules, little or no retirement other than 401K , to simply be in a flying job.

Kind of hard to take the rest of your post seriously when you include garbage like this.

My LCC contributes 10.5% of my gross earnings into a "B" Fund that I administer. Add in a three year upgrade to the left seat and 12 year pay that is pretty much the same as the 12 year pay at most "Legacy" carriers, and it is hardly the bleak existence you describe.

True. it's not "your Father's airline job" but few things are. $150K is still a pretty good living, unless you live in SFO or some other place that costs twice as much as the rest of the country. If that is your desire, well, then you probably do need to be in another line of work, because that $300K/yr may not be attainable in this industry unless the pilots all get together, which just reading this board will pretty much rule that possibility out.

 

[PastFastMover]

Ty,

My post was not meant to denigrate the LCC's. I hope you have a great "job" working for whoever you work for. I have flown for more than a couple of majors (flying left seat for all of them) since way before deregulation and have seen literally scores of LCC's that are the Queen of the moment turn into the turd of the hour. 3 years to left seat to me means your company has not been around for long. I hope I am not being presumptuous, but you sound young and relatively new. I truely hope your current carrier hangs in there and you remain till retirement. I personally, looking back on the experience, would not put my life at the whim of the MBA of the hour. Things really look different the older you get, and your company of the hour disappears and you start over again. I suppose 150 grand sounds like great pay to the youngsters, but in the world today that is chump change for someone that is looking for a great career. I agree that the 300K career in this industry is gone, the 150K job will only go lower the way things are currently going.

I love to fly, it has been my passion. From J3 Cubs, to Supersonic Fighters to B-777's, I have seen the best of what this industry has to offer and also the worst as poor management takes your once great company down. I hope that you don't have to continually start over and over and over. I would say the odds are truely against you. If you don't want to take the rest of my post seriously then don't. But I think I have put in the time to give my opinion of the industry. I have only posted on this forum a limited number of times. I have absolutely no interest in debating anyone or challenging anyone in the back and forth that some folks seems to relish.

Good luck.

 

[Fokkerflyer]

Hey Mooney-

Ever consider a career as a corporate pilot?

I would say the process from cfi to corporate jet is still 5 yrs., sometimes longer, but can be very rewarding. Start banging on doors, try to get rides in turboprops, whatever it takes. I used to work at a flt school where all the instructors were very focused on the airlines. I was pumping fuel at that time also. Long story short, got a corporate job, and by the time they got on with a commuter I was working on my third type rating.

Maybe corporate is not as glamorous as airline life, to me it's been very rewarding.

Hope this helps,
FF

 

[CitrusGuy]

Dude, trust me. There is plenty more "glamour" driving the limo than driving the bus. I don't see any "glamour" in what I'm doing but I enjoy it. It's a fun job but I wouldn't recomend it as a career to my children. (I would hang pictures of teeth on their walls...

 

[AA717driver]

Ok, one more time...

If all you've ever wanted to do is fly, go for it. Just realize what the downside is.

If you are in it for a cushy job that pays big bucks and is glamorous, you may want to work somewhere else.

BTW, other than med school/dental school, what business pays $100k/year and works you 15 days a month?

Jobs in aviation aren't quite a $h!tty as many here make it out to be. It just isn't what it used to be. JMO.TC

 

[flyfastinmy10]

Hey Mooney-

Ever consider a career as a corporate pilot?

I would say the process from cfi to corporate jet is still 5 yrs., sometimes longer, but can be very rewarding. Start banging on doors, try to get rides in turboprops, whatever it takes. I used to work at a flt school where all the instructors were very focused on the airlines. I was pumping fuel at that time also. Long story short, got a corporate job, and by the time they got on with a commuter I was working on my third type rating.

Maybe corporate is not as glamorous as airline life, to me it's been very rewarding.

Hope this helps,
FF

Mooney

The pilot career is almost like an internal calling. Right now this business sucks but there are still more that want in than jobs available.
I worked the office thing for years and reflect on it often. This time of year after the clocks change I still get depresssed remembering looking out the window at work until 9 or 10 pm every evening. I worked my azz off trying to get ahead. I have missed so many important things in my life that I regret. I finally gave up on getting ahead or winning in the business world. I would dream of being off on weekends or even a coulpe of days in a row.
I finally left my six figure income about 5 years ago. I was lucky to get hired by a small corporate jet charter company with less than a thousand hours. It was a good fit for both parties. I wanted to fly and have more time off and they wanted someone that would be available 24/7/365. I started working about 15 days a month. I upgraded about a year later and during the next 5 years got 2 types, lots of hours and was treated very well.
I recently went to work for a major, again looking for a better schedule. I plan on staying here until I retire. If this doesn't work out I will go back to the Corporate thing. I will not chase the Airline career because I can't do it. I can't take the pay cuts and start over and over. I hate reserve and now have a line but this is it. I wouldn't do it again. The airline thing.
My advice to you........Try the corporate charter job. Stay with it untill you have other options and then make a decision and good luck.
I hear everyone on this board talking about how good other professions are but the grass always looks greener. I personally don't know anyone that is truely happy with their career.
Good luck and if you have any questions on how I did it, send me a PM