Senate, House Agree to Sixfold Boost in Airline Pilots' Flight Experience

[BoilerUP]

...so exactly when are those new fatigue (duty/rest) rules coming, again?

Besides, CDOs are not inherently unsafe - how their utilized by a company is what makes them unsafe.

 

[General Lee]

...so exactly when are those new fatigue (duty/rest) rules coming, again?

Besides, CDOs are not inherently unsafe - how their utilized by a company is what makes them unsafe.

It's still locked up in the aviation safety sub comittee, but just like these new hiring minimums, they will be addressed eventually. There is no doubt the ATA is lobbying the heck out of the panel members, but the friends and family of those who died on the Colgan flight will contiue to press them until it is complete.

And CDOs are liked by some, hated by others, but you can't argue with science. A min of 10 hours of rest behind the door is just safer than a CDO. If someone can't afford day care for their 3 kids and need to be home during the day while the wife works, then they should have applied to a major sooner, instead of being stuck doing CDOs for the rest of his/her life and staying poor. And if all else fails, then play Powerball. You can't win if you don't play!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[BoilerUP]

It's still locked up in the aviation safety sub comittee, but just like these new hiring minimums, they will be addressed eventually.

I'm sure folks have been saying that for the past two decades...maybe you're right and this time something will change.

Maybe.

And CDOs are liked by some, hated by others, but you can't argue with science. A min of 10 hours of rest behind the door is just safer than a CDO.

A CDO isn't any different than the flying FedEx/UPS/AirNet/etc. do, or doctors/nurses/police/firefighters do - its just night shift work.

If companies schedule CDOs solely as night shift work, then there's nothing about them that is unsafe - the human body's circadian rhythm adjusts. On the other hand, if a company backs them up to regular parings or has crews flying turns before or after the start of the CDO turn, then yes that is quite unsafe and needs to be addressed by regulation.

 

[General Lee]

I'm sure folks have been saying that for the past two decades...maybe you're right and this time something will change.

Maybe.



A CDO isn't any different than the flying FedEx/UPS/AirNet/etc. do, or doctors/nurses/police/firefighters do - its just night shift work.

If companies schedule CDOs solely as night shift work, then there's nothing about them that is unsafe - the human body's circadian rhythm adjusts. On the other hand, if a company backs them up to regular parings or has crews flying turns before or after the start of the CDO turn, then yes that is quite unsafe and needs to be addressed by regulation.

I bet Fedex and UPS don't want new rules or regs either. It will be done with science in mind, and that may help or hurt some airlines. 9 hour turns will probably be allowed, but this time with certain departure times and arrival times. Lots of interesting stuff, and these old rules were made in the 1950s when airlines weren't even doing half of what they are now. But, there are people who don't want change, and they are probably lobbying big time their views.

And I know what a CDO is, and it will be interesting to see how the panel handles that. 4 hours in a hotel at night just doesn't do it, but neither does a 6 hour break in a lounge waiting for your next flight out between flights. Science will have to show what is safest.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[pilotyip]

Unintented consquences

That will drive Regional expenses way up, and will limit their attractiveness to the legacies. The legacies will then decide to do some of the regional flying themselves flying smaller mainline planes, and that will increase mainline hiring. I also don't see foreign pilots coming into the mix. If Congress is getting tough on our US pilots, I would think it would make it hard for foreigners, like language tests and flying aptitude tests that won't be easy. One crash with a foreigner flying it, and that program would be over.

Bye Bye--General Lee

You are missing an important part of the equation. The marginal ticket buyer, you know the one who buys the 90 day advance $99 ticket, will elect not to travel on the airlines. I know it is hard to imagine anyone would elect to drive when they could fly. But a lot of people do it. The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. The airline do not have the profit margins to raise wages without raising ticket prices. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. As with many regulations, good for senior, not so good for everyone else. BTW yea like back in the early 90's as a 10K hour pilot I could not apply at American Eagle because I did not have 500 hours in the last year, I only had 450 PIC in a AC-690.

 

[buscap]

My hope is the majors get huge pay raises in their next contract!!!

Raise the bar and rising tides!!!

 

[johnpeace]

My hope is the majors get huge pay raises in their next contract!!!

Raise the bar and rising tides!!!

That'd be great for everyone!

 

[jmreii]

The free market system at it's best. Too many pilots chasing too few jobs, minimums go up and wages go down. If there are too many job's chasing too few pilots then minimums go down and wages go up. Remove the ability to lower the minimums and that only leaves one choice. If a regional finds it can't fill new hire classes they will pay more and/or give bonuses to attract new pilots. Everyone thinks of new hire cfi type applicants being the only ones who go to the regional level. I have many friends with 1000's of hours that are flying corporate, charter, air ambulance, forest service, etc. that would be willing to jump to 121 if first year pay was a livable wage. If your airline went out of business would you start applying to every 20k airline job or try to find something that had wages comparable to what you make now?

A person who understands the business world!

 

[johnpeace]

The free market system at it's best.

Where corporations like airline holding companies hire lobbyists to dictate to congress and government administrations what the policies are going to look like?

If there are too many job's chasing too few pilots then minimums go down and wages go up. Remove the ability to lower the minimums and that only leaves one choice.

Right, lobby congress to force the FAA to allow ab-initio training for newhires.

I don't see higher pay for newhires (or anyone else) at airlines in my crystal ball. Just more back-room influence peddling to subvert the free market and manipulate the labor market into being what they need it to be in order to operate 'efficiently' and maximize their shareholder return, profits and bonuses.

A person who understands the business world!

In the most 'FoxNews' sense of the word 'understand'.

 

[CMRJetDriver]

"The National Transportation Safety Board this year said Colgan Captain Marvin Renslow caused the crash by incorrectly responding to a stall warning in the cockpit."


While Marvin Renslow did not monitor the situation after the gear was lowered and airspeed decreased it appears he did respond correctly by increasing power after the stick shaker activated. What he failed to do was control the situation after the power was increased. The transcripts show the FO changed the aircraft configuration (all by herself and without any direction from the captain) during the stall. This just made matters worse as the aircraft would need even more speed for recovery. Set maximum power, don't change the aircraft configuration and wait for an increase in speed and a positive rate of climb. The Q400 has more than enough power to recover once the stick shaker activates.

Interesting comment from the FO about four minutes before they did crash.

22:12:05.0

HOT-2

I've never seen icing conditions. I've never deiced. I've never seen any—

I've never experienced any of that. I don't want to have to experience that
and make those kinds of calls. you know I'dve freaked out. I'dve have like​

seen this much ice and thought oh my gosh we were going to crash.

22:16:21.2
HOT-2 ​

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gear's down.

22:16:23.5
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HOT-1 ​

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flaps fifteen before landing checklist.

22:16:26.0
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CAM ​

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[sound similar to flap handle movement]

22:16:26.6
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HOT-2 ​

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uhhh.

22:16:27.4
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CAM ​

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[sound similar to stick shaker lasting 6.7 seconds]

22:16:27.7​

HOT [sound similar to autopilot disconnect horn repeats until end of recording]

SOURCE CONTENT SOURCE CONTENT
DCA09MA027
CVR Factual Report
Page 12-63
22:16:27.9
CAM ​

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[sound of click]

22:16:31.1
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CAM ​

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[sound similar to increase in engine power]

22:16:34.8
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HOT-1 ​

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Jesus Christ.

22:16:35.4
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CAM ​

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[sound similar to stick shaker lasting until end of recording]

22:16:37.1
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HOT-2 ​

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I put the flaps up.

22:16:40.2
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CAM ​

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[sound of two clicks]

22:16:42.2
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HOT-1 ​

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[sound of grunt] *ther bear.

22:16:45.8
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HOT-2 ​

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should the gear up?

22:16:46.8
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HOT-1 ​

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gear up oh #.

22:16:50.1
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CAM ​

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[increase in ambient noise]

22:16:51.9
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HOT-1 ​

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we're down.

22:16:51.9
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CAM ​

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[sound of thump]

22:16:52.0​

HOT-2 we're [sound of scream]
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