RJ vs. DC-9-10

Johnlp3

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Douglas
DC-9
Short to Medium-Range Jetliner

Service Entry 8 December 1965 (with Delta Airlines)

DC-9-10
PASSENGERS: (DC-9-10) 80 in two classes, 90 in one class
Length: 104 ft
Wingspan: 89 ft
Height: 27 ft
Max Takeoff: 90,700 lb

Comparisons:

CRJ-700
Passengers: 70
Length: 106 ft
Wingspan: 75 ft.
Height: 24 ft.
Maximum Takeoff
Weight 75,000 lbs.

CRJ-900
Passengers: 86
Length: 120 ft
Wingspan: 77
ftHeight: 25ft
Max Takeoff: 84,500

EMB-170
Passengers: 70
Length: 98 ft
Wingspan: 86ft
Height: 32ft
Max Takeoff: 81,240

EMB-190
Passengers: 96-104
Length: 119 ft
Wingspan: 95ft
Height: 32ft
Max Takeoff: 106,922

The term "Regional Jet" dosen't seem to work with these "Short to Medium-Range Jetliners"
 

zymotic

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This flamebait has been posted hundreds of times on various message boards. I think it has been beaten to death.
 

AlbieF15

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I don't think this is flamebait--its a hint at the future.

The cost/pax is the big issue. As long as regional guys get paid a "C" scale wage the advantage and growth on routes will be on the regionals...at least until capacity at major airports becomes gridlocked and the advantage again goes to jets with more seats.

SWA, Frontier, and JetBlue all try to keep fairs low with low fixed costs, high flight volume (to divide fixed costs by the highest number of pax possible), and to a lessor extent pilot compensation. On the other hand, the regionals lean on lower wages as their primary advantage.

I'm not baiting anyone here--and I don't have an "off the cuff" solution. However, the regionals will grow until A) their crew cost advantages ceases (perhaps due to union actions?) or B) the Feds start leaving serious landing fees at busy airports (and that's not likely now with a weaker post 9/11 economy).

Where is Bluedevav8tor? He has done MEC work for a regional....he might be a good guy to weigh in on this.

Fly safe
 

hawkerjock

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You ever notice that RJ drivers never respond on any of these websites. Do they feel guilty or do they not make enough to buy a $400 computer?
 

zymotic

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Huh?

I guess you didn't notice that I had a CL65 type. My computer cost about $800.
 

TWA Dude

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Let's face it, the term "regional jet" is a misnomer. They are "small jets". But we all know what's meant by the term "RJ" so there's no sense in getting bent out of shape over it.

Incidentally the DC9-10 has a full-sized interior which is more comforable than the CRJs or ERJs. I don't know about the new Embraers yet.
 

Ty Webb

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I don't see too many DC9-10's out there, it was considered the "baby 9".

If you want to compare the new RJ's to the B717, (which is basically the DC9-30 airframe), ours seat 117 pax in a two-class configuration (sell those business class seats!).

The difference between the Nationals and the jet Regionals isn't just the equipment- it's also about pay and work rules. Part of the reason the Regionals continue to get away with that is because they still hire a large number of first-time airline pilots (CFI's, banner towers, freight dogs) who see $20K a yr as a raise, and $50K Capt pay as "the big time".

Nationals like Airtran, Midwest Express, Jet Blue, and others generally hire pilots from regionals, which means that the thrill of flying a 121 jet has worn off, and they are more focused on the pay and benefits, and insist on being paid a more reasonable rate. That is why F/O pay at AirTran is about even with Capt pay at Comair and the others.
 
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OakRBust

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How do you get a major airline JOB?????????
(Without going Millitary)



Last time I checked all Majors require PIC Turbine time. Maybe all us civillian guys should quit our entry level PIC turbine building regional jobs because they don't pay enough. Oh wait... then how could we build PIC Turbine time. Regionals are the civillians entry level job. It is a stepping stone to get to the majors. (Not for everyone but for most) New hire pilots have 1000 total 100 Multi (or in that area)

Find all the civillian regional pilots an alternative way to build PIC Turbine Time for better pay or stop posting this garbage.


Zymotic... HawkerJack didn't notice your type cause his head is way to far up his A$$. Maybe we could borrow his daddy's king air to build time.
 

Ty Webb

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Oak:

First of all, let me be the first to welcome you to this Board. Every Village needs an Idiot, and I guess you will certainly fit the bill. If you think the answer is so very obvious, maybe you just don't understand the question.

The truth is that there are less and less major jobs, and that the "PIC Turbine Building Jobs" are quickly becoming "career employment". As long as you and other idiots like you continue to treat flying at anything less than a major as simply more flight training/experience building, you will continue to guarantee low wages and poor work rules at the regionals.

PS., I didn't come from the military, and I didn't buy a job, either.
 
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Johnlp3

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reason for post

The reason I posted these numbers was to show how the line between the majors and "regionals" is being erased. I'm sure if you were a pilot at DAL in 1965 when they introduced the DC-9 you would have been thrilled to fly it, with an "FE" of course. When TXI first flew the DC-9 with a two pilot crew it changed aviation as we know it by not having the FE. All the major airline pilots were pissed at TXI for agreeing to fly without one. As you can see now they would have never won the fight. Two pilot crews are here to stay. Just like the "Regional Jet" is here to stay. As regional airlines get bigger and fly larger planes on longer routes the pay, benefits, and work rules should grow also. We are back where we were in 1965, flying "short to medium haul jet aircraft". Only this time the fight is not over 3pilot vs. 2pilot crews, it is over who should fly the plane in the first place. In my opinion an airline ahould be able to fly the best aircraft for the route, period. If an airline could deploy any aircraft it wants to best suit the route (not to best suit the scope clauses) it would undoubtably make money. So erase the scope clause, erase the regional airline, one company, one pilot group, no limits.
 

OakRBust

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TY... I will type this slowly for you!


I don't know what post you were reading..... Or maybe you had a friend read it to you...


If you think that there is one regional pilot out there that thinks that they are overpaid then you are the IDIOT! Majors have been around for a long time and have had several contracts come and go. In time, regional contracts will be linear to the majors.... BUT IT IS GOING TO TAKE TIME..... IF my company was around since 1920's I'd be making a big fat pile of cash too. It took many hard hours by the unions to get wages up to par for the majors just like it is going to take for the regional guys.


My post was aimed at all the righteous people out there that think that regional airline pilots should just up and quit for making little money. When I signed on at my current company we had the "industry leading regional contract. That only lasted until the next regional contract was signed. That's how this business works... Brick by brick.... dollar by dollar...


I am sure that you are making millions at your corporate job and have great work rules..... Get real... and talk about what you know not who you ........
 

Ty Webb

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Oak:

Don't worry about typing slowly for me, pal, I got it right the first time. Maybe if you'd slow down a little yourself and read past the first few planes listed, you'd see a B717 in there, too, which is my current job. Corporate is what got me there.

This may surprise you, but even most mediocre corporate flight departments have better pay and working conditions than the "leading regional", which is why I went that route. When I qualified for a job at the 121 of my choice, I made the move. Jet time was jet time, and here I am.

Congrats for cinching your position as Village Idiot. May your reign be long and prosperous.
 

zymotic

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Do you mean to tell me Ty that sitting 12 hours on an FBO couch waiting for your boss to return from his meetings and late night dinner is an example of better work rules than the trip and duty rigs at current regionals? Interesting.

The most mediocre regional guy still can't fly past 16 hours duty thanks to 121 regs. Can a part 91 corporate guy say the same?
 

flywithruss

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This debate gets old ...

I hate to break up this Mutual Admiration Society, but ...

I have to step in on the "corporate vs. regional" thing that has come to life here all of a sudden. I chose corporate flying, like Ty, as my starting point in the business ... I may stay put, or I may go to an airline one day ... I don't know. However, I do think Ty is right in one respect ... pay is certainly better at most (reputable) corporate operators than even the best regionals. Work rules are another story. I won't say one side or the other is better or worse, merely different ... some guys would rather fly eight legs a day with 30-minute turns, and some would rather have the FBO-sit that sometimes happens corporately. It all depends on your personal preference. Let's just leave it at that.

Regardless of whose name is on the side of your airplane, fly it safely!

Tailwinds, y'all ...

R
 

zymotic

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I have nothing against corporate flying. I was just replying to Ty's remarks. He apparently has some self esteem problems and finds it necessary to call people that feel a regional job is for time building an idiot.
 

HA25

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As a former "Regional", then Corporate, then American Airlines (newhire) then back to my corporate job (thanks to 9/11)... I can tell you that major airline jobs are there and would be more plentyful if there weren't so **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** many RJ's flying mainline style (non-feed) routes.

I personally want to see every major airline stick to tight scope language that doesn't focus so much on the type of jet being flown as much as what it's doing. For example I don't give a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** if they want to shuttle a 50 seat ERJ back and forth from Austin to DFW or Stockton to SFO, so long as those pax are connecting to a mainline flight. But if they start to operate more like the mainline, then that needs to be stopped.

Building routes is also ok, but then we need a way to gurantee that this goes away after the market is established and mainline flights take over.

Otherwise this will lead to a downward spiral that will terminate with our profession going south.
 

HA25

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OK, that was interesting.
 
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zymotic

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I agree V7. Even though I'm a CRJ driver I would rather fly a turboprop now and have all the RJs at the majors. I think there would be more jobs at the majors if the pay was a bit more reasonable. It looks like at least the USAirways MEC understands this.
 

HA25

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You are smart, I saw this while I was an ATR captain too. And at American, the APA tried to get the Eagle list stapled on to theirs and management pissed on that, with the help of senior Eagle ALPA members.

The only solution is good (smart) scope language.
 
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