Professional Pilot Programs

[Draginass]

The time to get your training is when the industry is in the dumper. Hopefully when you're ready competitive to hire, the industry will be in an upswing.

As far as the degree goes, yes there are some airlines (generally not the most desirable ones) who don't require a 4 yr degree, but keep in mind that almost NO ONE gets hired at a major airline with just minimum entry requirements. The "real" requirements are the "competitive" ones -- and that means a lot higher TT/ME PIC/turbine time/experience AND a 4 year degree. Don't factor in "but I'm a really motivated person" BS, cause everybody you're competing against is just as motivated.

As a female or minority, you MAY get an interview with a bit lower "competitive" qualification (i.e. a bit "sooner"), but keep in mind that once in training, you're just another pilot and you're going to have to cut the mustard or you're going to get fired, just like anyone else. I've seen this happen several times where it become obvious that someone just couldn't learn the jet in the time alloted due to just not being experienced enough, or worse, copping an attitude. So don't apply until you're sure you have the experience and are ready. Getting fired from a major airline is not career enhancing, no matter who you are.

 

[johnsugar@compu]

Sorry for the thread drift, but there is some content for Diana here.
Jetbound, Yes Susan is my wife. She did in fact have an interview with AirTran along with a few others at ATA and the interviewer was happy but we never heard from them due to some FAA training hurdles at the time. Susan was offered the choice of any plane Eagle flew in many bases. She chose the ATR in order to move up fast. She is on the street now but doing some part time flying in a KingAir 200. She also wanted the ASA job. My opinion only...Rob Williams himself ruined that deal because of a personality clash with one of the ASA people. I was on the phone with both sides getting to the bottom of it. There were and still are rumors about that.
One comment about the sim time. You will most likely use the SOP
's and callouts of the airline you plan to go with. This will help make school a little easier and the airline likes it. For all those out there that have a problem with low time pilots at airlines I have this to say. More time and experience is always better....howerver, I had low time when hired at UAL, but didn't have any problem going from C-172's to B737's. Airlines have done this several times in the past even hiring 0 time pilots in the 60's. I was co-pilot for these guys and It didn't seem any different than flying with others. It's just a matter of supply and demand. It doesn't take a certain amount of hours to fly a jet...it has more to do with drive to learn and common sense.
I went flying with Susan this morning around the pattern a bunch of times trading landings...still a blast. John

 

[AZaviator]

>>Eagle will return to us in Jan., which means that all AA pilots must be called back first. This came from Eagles MGMT. That is why Im optimistic!<<

FlyinBrian, I'll let you respond to this quote. Not trying to start a war, but wanted to get the lowdown from a more credible source who knows that Eagle won't be recruiting from ATA in January.

That would mean that the currently 200+ furloughed Eagle pilots and who knows how many AA pilots would all be called back, trained and online, including those who were already awaiting a class date.

Oh, and I doubt very seriously that not too long ago, 10% of ASA's pilots were from ATA. ASA has been around a lot longer than ATA and had a relationship with Flightsafety several years before ATA came along.

My $2 worth....again. And I'm running out of money.

 

[AWACoff]

.

When Great Lakes starts hiring low timers again, we can all breath easy knowing that the good old days are back. Forget about recalls for a while. Currently AWAC recalling is sometime in the 3rd quarter of '02 and that's not including an additional 80 furloughs being talked about. Why hire or even recall when the load factors are down...Coex is thinking 2nd to 3rd quarter. If this kid from ATA continues posting, I am going to the doctor to have all of this sunshine removed from my rectum. Hopefully it isn't a disqualifying event.

 

[jaybird]

ASA

ASA canceled all low time hire bridge programs back in April except for Flight Safety which was more or less PFT. I know because I was part of it (ERAU Bridge). A low time new hire burned up 2 engines on a Brasilia some time earlier this year and their insurance wont cover such low time hires. Can someone at ASA elaborate more on this?

 

[Wiggums]

About the Uniforms, now. Yes, I agree that it can be a bit of a hassle, especially in the dead of summer! However, for those who are so skeptical about it, WILL YOU NOT BE WEARING A UNIFORM FOR THE REST OF YOUR CAREER?! The program at ATA is a Professional Program and thus they want us to appear as Professionals. It is one of there many ways they try to prepare us for the airlines.

Yes it's true that airline pilots wear uniforms throughout their career, however, it is a poor argument as to why student pilots should be wearing uniforms. By that argument if I went to a law school I would see all the students wearing suits, or if I visited a pre-med program I would see all the students in scrubs. Mainly I believe that uniforms are a waste of money for students, especially at a school like ATA where they charge an extra several hundred dollars for uniforms. Also, you don't need uniforms to be professional. What about ATP? Typical clothing there in the summer is shorts, a t-shirt, and sandals. Don't forget to pilots at Airnet, they don't wear uniforms. Are they not professional?

Now the SIM! I did NOT pay for this program to get in a CL65 Sim. The program I paid for included 30hrs in a B707 full motion in Miami. The school recently purchased the $2mil CL65(RJ) SIM which was purchased to replace the SIM time in Miami in an outdated aircraft! They are now beginning to talk about purchasing another SIM, an ERJ. But we are not just going to jump right into the SIM like a bunch of idiots try to fly the big computer around. Before we even get in the SIM we are to receive a CL65 part 121 qualified ground school taught by a Comair Check-Airmen Pilot. I have already received EMB120 Specifics from this Instructor. They are now doing away with the Brasilia Specifics and are shifting to the CL65 Specs. The reason is simple, REGIONALS are doing away with Props and are shifting to the small JET!

I think you are missing the point about the sim. It doesn't matter what you flew, be it a CRJ (what people in a the real world call a CL65), a B-707, or a EMB-120. The problem is that you PAID for the EMB-120 ground school, you also PAID to fly a B-707 sim. Why should you pay for training that the airlines are going to provide you for free when you get hired?

This school is doing very well financially and its airline Discover Air is about to make some MAJOR moves. I believe we will find out what is exactly happening with them in the next couple of weeks. I have heard some VERY exciting rumors which I will not post until they release the announcement. But one thing I will say is that JEB BUSH has already come to our school(my class actually) and has begun a strong relationship with the Williams family. I have heard that he has already agreed to make us the Florida Regional airline and has given Discover Air all the contracts to the Florida College teams. However, this is NOT the BIG announcement. The reason I am posting this is because you do want to go to a financially well off school. The better off the school is the students reap the benefits, i.e. CL65 SIM

Governor Bush agreed to make Discover Airlines the “Florida Regional”? If you are so naïve as to believe that all it takes to run a successful business is be endorsed by a politician then I feel sorry for you. What about competition from all the other regionals that now operate in FL. Also, don't forget that FL has historically been a poor market for air travel.

 

[Wiggums]

Your first post...

It appears that there are going to be several options available to us VERY SOON. I shake my head at the suckers who gave up there training because the industry is hurting right now. Take it one step at a time. I did and it looks like I will get into a regional at <400hrs directly into a JET.

Your latest post...

I totally agree with you in that having a CFI is a tremendously important backup, especially in these times. And as soon as my training is completely finished(RJ SIM and RJ ground) those are exactly what I'll go for. But I will not quit my training early because I DO know that the Airline industry changes DAILY!

You've paid for Airstage II, the RJ sim and ground, and you're almost certain that soon you'll be in the right seat of a jet. Explain then why you would need to spend more money to get your CFI certificates?

 

[FlyinBrian]

I think I'm about done with this thread, but I will respond to Eagle recruiting from ATA in January per AZaviator's request....


HAHAHAhahahHAHAHahahaHAhaa!

Really, I hate to be a jerk, so I'm going to be civil here. Jetbound, I honestly hope you end up in a jet very soon. Your optimistic attitude is not a bad thing, but you do need to be a little bit realistic. I'm a furloughed Eagle guy. I can tell you that with the ASM limitations imposed on us by AA, and the flow through/back agreement we have with them, every one of American's 500+ , and Eagle's 307 furloughed pilots will have to be called back before Eagle recuruits anyone, and it will take awhile. In addition, Eagle has told those who were offered positions but who had not started class that they would remain in a hiring pool. (I believe that's probably another 50 pilots or so.) All of these pilots will have to go through training before any newhire classes can possibly start. I can promise you with 99% security that there is no way that will happen by January. I can tell you with almost the same amount of security that neither I, nor my furloughed brothers and sisters will even be back by then.

On a personal note: Jetbound, I'm sorry If I came across as attacking you personally. I do have a fundamental disagreement with the product that schools like ATA sell, and the tone in your original message bordered on sheer arrogance. It touched a nerve with me and several others, and if I responded in a less than productive way, I apologize. I do hope that our dialogue here helps somebody to make a well-educated decision on how to pursue aviation an a career. End of rant.

 

[dondk]

Jetbound and others...

You can see by the response many do not agreee with you but applaude your spirt. Why is that, probably because each one of us went to some school whether it was FSI, ATA, Comair, Pan Am, Westwind, Phoenix East or whatever... In hind sight we KNOW where we got screwed with the same spirit that you have now. If we were to re-visit this discussion in let's say 6 months you may have a different outlook. I would say most if not all of us also THOUGHT the school we chose was the best for whatever the reason was.

The cold hard truth though is no school is perfect, no matter how many bells and whistles they throw at you and no matter how much you pay. The thing that burns most of us is the fact the
"sunshine" these schools are preaching, if they do nothing else they are making a bad name for the industry. I say this because when you are finished and without the "golden job" for another year or more you will become bitter at the industry well before you become bitter at the school. Your fellow brothers and sisters may beat you out for that job because school "X" gave a FMS course (just kidding but a poor example) that no other offered and THAT was the reason they got hired. This is pure rumor or even better dreams. Most of do not know why they hire the pilots they do, we all know at least one (if not more) that we still scratch our collective heads wondering how the dufus got the job...

This is a good thread still, hopefully someone will listen and understand there is no magical rainbow, thier is luck, thier is being at the right place at the right time and that's about it.

-don

 

[bobbysamd]

Flight School "Sunshine" and Uniforms

I agree with "dondk" about the "sunshine" stories you hear about schools. Here's why.

At least where I live, afternoon TV abounds with commercials advertising some sort of trade school. One school in particular blasts Oprah watchers with promises of a great career as a medical technologist or medical assistant. You can hear it: "MEDICAL TECHNOLOGISTS ARE NEEDED!!!! (add reverb) TRAIN NOW FOR A REWARDING CAREER!!!!" Now compare it to flight school ads in such mags as Flying or Private Pilot. Of course there is a pilot shortage and, of course, you can make big bucks flying for the airlines in eighteen short months if you go to our school. And our school and no other can boast a 99% placement rate with every major airline in the U.S., past, present and future. And the 1% not placed now fly for Aeroflot (Sorry, I got carried away), Etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

All vocational-type schools make these claims because they're in business and want to sell you their course!! What separates flight schools from the vocational schools you see during Oprah or Ricki Lake is they don't advertise on TV because flying is esoteric compared to, e.g., medical support and truck driving (and I intend no rank on either and my comments should not be taken as such, please!!).

The point is that all flight schools promise the moon (or a commuter airline job in 18 months )and flight training that will prepare Joe Doofus Average to pilot SR-71s. No school recruiter will be honest and say that hiring is slow and you'll be lucky to get a job bagging groceries at Safeway with your new ticket and 200 hours until the economy picks up. And no recruiter will opine that you might not have what it takes to be a big-time airline pilot. Wouldn't such honesty be refreshing? Face it, folks, flight schools sell dreams. It is up to the consumer, i.e., prospective student to have a basic understanding of this business before cutting the $40K check.

The uniform issue in this thread has captured my interest. I don't see where it should be such a big deal.

Just to compare and contrast, at Riddle instructors did not have to wear uniforms but had to wear ties, with female instructors wearing similar attire appropriate to them. Students did not wear uniforms but had to wear shirts with sleeves, trousers, and shoes and socks. At FSI everyone except for office staff and the Center Manager wore uniforms, including students, chief instructors, group leaders, and line instructor pukes including yours truly. At Mesa no one really wore "uniforms," but students going on cross-countries had to wear slacks and white shirts. During the week I wore slacks and short-sleeve crew shirts, i.e. the ones you can buy directly from Van Heusen. But weekends were "casual," with no dress code.

Uniform or not, the important thing is to project a professional image if you want to be taken as such.

Didn't mean to write an essay, but toss another two cents in the box for me anyway.