Problem FBO recommendations please

[sky37d]

The FBO that recently completed my annual is the source of some grief to me. I am really p1ssed off.

The annual took 8 weeks, mostly slow on their part, and cost me more than $12,000. Mostly labor for a really slow A&P. When I was over there, one day, the IA was replacing a hose, and I asked him how it was going, and his response was don't ask me, I'm not running the show.

The A&P (presumably, however I know he is not an IA) removed the log books, because they had weighed the airplane, and he wanted to make an entry. That was on Monday, March 8. I had a problem on the flight to where the airplane is kept, and took the plane to the local avionics shop on Tuesday. Today I picked it up, and couldn't find the log books. Called the FBO that did the annual, and sure enough they were there. No phone call in 4 days from them.

They insisted that I replace the cowl flap motor, so I bought one. Had it shipped to them. Told everyone in the place that there was a $500 core charge, and I wanted the old motor back. Of course I don't have it.

The de-ice boots are old, and they insisted that they fix them before I fly off. On the flight up, on Monday, a patch disappeared. I don't know if it is airworthy without the patch. I'm not certified known ice, so I don't think it is a big deal, but there is rubber missing, and rubber flapping in the breeze.

Because the FBO that did the annual is 50 miles from my home base, at my request, they arranged for one of their flight instructors follow me up, pick me up, and return me to their FBO. That was the only good part. Got to ride in the right seat, and not pay attention. Probably someone broke the Part 135 rule.

I called the FBO manager, but he didn't return my call. Now, I am really angry, and I have asked them to return my log books, in a timely fashion, tomorrow by 10 AM. I also asked that they return the old cowl flap motor, or a check for $500.

I think that is reasonable. Am I being an @ss, or not. Please someone tell me I am not.

 

[avbug]

...and his response was don't ask me, I'm not running the show.

Sounds like you're dealing with a Part 145 repair station, and he was probably right.

Mostly labor for a really slow A&P.

I understand you're upset...but five to twelve grand for a first inspection and subsequent repair work isn't unusual. What makes you think the mechanic should have been faster? Do you want fast, or do you want it right? You might really be surprised just how much time is required to perform a simple repair on an airplane. It's not like yanking a part off and throwing one on, on a car.

For example, take a small crack in the skin of the airplane, to which a simple patch is applied. The area should be stripped, and prepped, and thoroughly cleaned. The crack ends should be drilled using a #40 drill bit, and the holes deburred. The area should be alumiprepped, and thoroughly washed, preferably with distilled water. Then alodined, and thorougly cleaned. Primer is then typically applied. A patch is prepared, after consulting with the Structural Inspection and Repair manual, to exactly match the former strength of the panel. It cannot be weaker, nor stronger. The patch is prepared in a similiar fashion. The edges are bevelled. It is measured, and edgemarked. An appropriate rivet spacing pattern is decided, and the piece marked, and then dimpled with an automatic center punch. It is then drilled using a small bit, before being drilled using the appropriate bit (#30 for a typical skin repair). All holes are deburred, the edges broken, and the entire piece smoothed.

The patch is then placed over the repair site, and the site marked. The first hole to be drilled is marked, then set with a punch, then drilled with a small undersize bit, before being redrilled with the appropriate rivet size. The part is then held in place by cleco before the opposite side of the part has a single hole drilled. It's then clecoed in a similiar fashion, and the remainder of the drilling takes place using the part as a template. The two parts are separated, and the work surface again deburred and chamfered. The patch is cleaned, prepped, and alodined.

A small batch of polyresin compound, sealant, is mixed by weight on an accurate scale, and the parts dressed with a thin coating of sealant before being applied together and clecoed in place. Rivets are then selected or cut for the exact length required for those two thicknesses of metal, and shot/bucked to take the patch. The patch area is then cleaned, and left to set.

That can take a couple of hours or more, depending on how much work is required...and that's just a little simple patch with a few rivets.

I found a few working rivets in an airplane last night, and it's probably going to run several thousand dollars. We're talking perhaps fifteen rivets. The whole story isn't just what you see on the surface. There can be much more to the story.

If you ordered your parts through the repair station, then they may have submitted the motor for core value; you haven't provided enough information on the nature of the facility, the work order, any agreements, etc, to comment specifically on the motor or parts.

Patches on boots are typically troublesome. They do come off. The patch kit for a typical Goodyear boot is five hundred dollars. That's for something like twelve patches, some scotchbrite, and a tube of 1301 cement. More expensive than you might think. And not uncommonly, the problems you're running into with the patches still occur.

 

[FN FAL]

Because the FBO that did the annual is 50 miles from my home base, at my request, they arranged for one of their flight instructors follow me up, pick me up, and return me to their FBO. That was the only good part. Got to ride in the right seat, and not pay attention. Probably someone broke the Part 135 rule.

There's no far 135 problem here.

Yea, I hear what you are saying on the woes of owning a twin engine plane and the unpleasantries of annuals. I used to own a 320 Skyknight with partners.

One annual was 1,500 bucks. It was done by the previous owners mechanic.

The next annual was 10,000 bucks. In addition, there was a few items that mechanic was sweeping under the rug. Our mechanics found data plates missing from accessories, and even a cylinder had to be replaced because it couldn't be determined what it was or where it came from.

Our next annual was 8,000 dollars and included quashing an AD by buying new props.

Every thing that broke cost 2,500 bucks to fix.

And to top it off, we had engines that couldn't be rebuilt because continental quit making parts for them. TSIO-470's? Ever heard of them?

 

[sky37d]

Thanks,
So I am being a d1ck. Just angry that they don't return phone calls.
Okay, I'm simmered down.
I understand quality, time comsuming repairs.
Don't understand part 145, can someone elaborate?

 

[FN FAL]

I'm not infering you are d1ck...I'm agreeing with you. It sucks being held hostage by these guys.

They can disassemble your plane for an annual, and if you don't like how they are handling it, they will put all the parts out on the ramp and charge for the privelidge of pulling your plane apart.

I guess the ideal situation for plane owners, is to get that danged mechanics ticket. (for the right person that may be the way to go).

 

[sky37d]

You know, if they had called on Monday, or Tuesday, or Wednesday, and said, hey your log books are here, I wouldn't be quite so p1ssed today. The fact that they couldn't make that kind of phone call, really disturbs me. when I called and asked for the FBO manager 3x, and he can't return my call, I'm an Atlas rocket on the pad. Unreasonable, but I hate being ignored.

 

[Flying Illini]

Sounds like you are being fairly reasonable. You just spent a LARGE amount of money. You expect to be treated professionally which is what hasn't happened. I realize a shop can be busy and a manager can have alot on his plate but he still shouldn't miss returning phone calls, especially to someone who just dropped 12 large at his shop. It sounds like the IA you spoke with (who brushed you off) could use some people skills. I know that their job description isn't to deal with curious pilots but there is still a certain level of professionalism that should be displayed. Have you ever gone to a nice car dealership? I mean one that sells BMW's or Mercedes. EVERY person is nice to you b/c they know you may (or already have) spent alot of money there. They want the return business and the personal recomendations that you may give others about their service. You should expect no less from an aircraft shop where you are dropping serious coin and are entrusting your life in what these people do to your airplane.

Sky, you're not a dick, you just demand a certain level of respect and professionalism that this shop didn't/hasn't come close to meeting.

I suggest that when you finally get the manager on the phone, you calmly explain to him how you feel and what you've gone through. Whether it changes anything at the shop or not, who knows, at least you have done what you could and now it's up to them to get their act together. And if you hint and not returning to them for service ever again (as well as not recomending their shop) you may start to get someone to pay attention to you...or maybe not. Good luck.

 

[pilotman2105]

I agree with Flying Illini. You're a customer. "The customer is always right." Use that to your advantage. If you are not getting phone calls returned, start showing up in person. The more they realize that you are not going to just go away, the more likely they will be to address you. Don't be rude when speaking with them, but be very firm and direct in what you want or need. If that doesn't work, figure out who the shop manager reports to. Keep going up the line until your problems are addressed. Nothing you have requested thus far is unreasonable, and it is not unreasonable for the shop to pay some attention to a paying customer.

And obviously, do not recommend this shop to your fellow pilots. If they are treating everyone this way, they'll be out of business soon.

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

My last day of work is tomorrow, working for a part 145 repair station. (then I'm off to Alaska)

Do you know that the IA was the lead on your airplane? If I'm working on King Air A, and the owner of Baron B starts asking me questions, he is costing the owner of King Air A some money (of course, we can do paperwork to ensure it gets billed correctly though). If he was working on some other project, especially if he wasn't ever assigned to your airplane, he should have been more civil and directed you to the right guy, but he was doing the right thing by not chatting with you.

Did you order the part and then have them install it? Our shop won't install customer supplied parts. If we order a part, if there is a core exchange, it is handled through our facility (we have a whole parts department for that stuff). Basically, they could have removed the cost of the core exchange from your bill already.

But you're right, the logbooks were screwed up. We won't let the line department tow an airplane out of our hangar until the logbooks have been done and either given back to the owner, or placed in the airplane where they want them.

As to taking too long, there are lots of things that can go against you here. Our facility has the policy that we do the inspection, then submit a list of squawks to the customer. Until they approve each individual one, we can't keep working. Doesn't matter if it's a tire with a 1 inch hole in it, or something like your deice boots. My understanding is most shops around the country are having problems with this, and customers refusing to pay once the work has been completed due to a "misunderstanding" about exactly what was/was not supposed to be fixed. In an ideal world, we'd be able to get ahold of every airplane owner about every two hours and get them to sign and fax us that sheet, just so we could keep working. But that rarely happens. Instead, we will pull stuff all apart, find a problem, and then wait for approval. That means that some new mechanic may put it back together ($$$), or that we have to clean up and get ready to work repeatedly ($$$).

So really, I can't see anything wrong with the maintenance as you described it, but the manager definately should have returned your calls. That is his job. For me, as the A&P, if I find that you need a new tire, I don't want to have to call you and make sure that it gets done. My boss does that (and he doesn't work on the airplanes). The same way that I don't usually touch the logbooks. When we get an airplane for maintenance, I hand the logbooks to the research guy, who tehn writes a work order to tell me what to do. I then tell him what I did, and he generates the logbook entry for the repair station. It's got good sides and bad, but on the whole, I think repair stations provide better maintenance than lone A&Ps.

Dan

 

[jbDC9]

Complaints like these are why I'm glad I'm gonna do an RV-8, avoid all that hassle... parts are cheap too. Had to buy a new fwd horiz. stab spar for my empennage kit, cost 17 bucks, plus shipping. Nice. Too bad I goofed up the first one...

Empennage is almost done, QB wings/fuse delivery in May... I'm kinda scared and excited at the same time, lotsa work ahead.