Pft

de727ups

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Huh?
I've seen a few PFT threads recently. Those who choose the PFT schemes to get ahead should know that the vast majority of professional pilots in the industry have strong feelings against PFT. The higher you go up the airline career ladder the more you'll find guys to be....let's just say....adamantly vocal, about it. The path to a major airline cockpit takes a lot of hard work....those who choose short-cut-schemes aren't thought of very highly. Is the kind of person who would choose PFT as a short cut the kind of person who would cross a picket line?

My advice to those who do PFT programs would be to keep your mouth shut about it. Don't be posting at an internet site where what you say can be seen for years afterwards. PFT may buy you a job at a regional and then you'll be on the mainstream path. Someday you'll be looking to move farther up and perhaps you will. When the cockpit talk turns to...."what did you do before Comair"....have a story made up that makes it sound like you had an honest job like everyone else. And don't EVER cross a picket line.........
 

skydiverdriver

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Of course, it's always Comair. Were they the only airline that had pft? It would seem so from the way people keep bringing it up. Other than that, I agree with everything you said.

PS, no, I refused to work here until they dropped pft. I think I may have had something to do with them dropping it. I guess I'll never know that for sure, but I like to think so.
 

bobbysamd

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Mesa "P-F-T'

Mesa's ab initio program wasn't exactly P-F-T. You have to learn how to fly somewhere and have to pay for it. MAPD dangled "the interview" as the carrot on the stick, but you were not hired without completing the program and attending the interview.

What Mesa got, though, was a pilot who had ten hours of 1900 time, which would probably be his/her first aircraft, and who was thoroughly indoctrinated in Mesa's line procedures from the first day. I believe that these students were issued 135 letters at the end of their 1900 training. Mesa received a pilot who was virtually ready to go on the line - and who paid for his/her training. Ya gotta love how Mesa schemed and connived to make or save money.

Mesa had what I like to call pay-for-interview schemes. You could go there and pay to take your ATP. If you passed it on the first try, you were guaranteed an interview. People who failed were rechecked and got the certificate but no interview. I don't remember how many passed the first time, but quite a few did not.

I know that Mesa started up something called the PACE program, in which low-timers signed up and paid for advanced training. Those who jumped through the hoops were guaranteed an interview.

Here, again, along with de727ups' well-taken comments, beware of P-F-T. P-F-T has been around for years. I wanted a commuter job desperately ten years ago and couldn't get one. I could have P-F-T'd. My pride and sense of accomplishment were more important to me than the job. I didn't want to feel I got the job because I could write a big check. And, speaking of big checks, you pay a hefty non-refundable deposit up front for P-F-T. That smacks of scam. It gives companies a major incentive to wash you out and not support you during training. That's a major conflict of interest. Moreover, there may be no jobs at your company after you complete your training. What are you going to do then?

Good luck with your decisions.
 
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Eagleflip

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I ask this not as flame-bait, but as an honest question. What is the difference philosophically between PFT at various carriers and SWA's 73 type requirement?

I do realize that PFT makes us bear a disproportionate share of a carrier's operating expenses, and I know that SWA trains their pilots (after typing) at the company's expense.

And no, I'm not picking on SWA--they're a great company. I just don't have the background to understand the scorn of PFT. Will somebody educate me?

Thanks in advance for the gouge!
 

OtterFO

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You can take your 737 type rating and go work for United, Delta, ATA, or whoever flys 737's. Under PFT, you are not getting a rating, you are usually getting an SIC 8410 in a piston twin or small turbine aircraft. It isn't a rating, you can't take your letter and go fly another company's airplanes. All you are doing is paying for indoc and flight training at a specific company...

Look at it this way, if you had an offer to fly a single turbine otter on floats, and you didn't have a single engine sea rating. Would you pay for your single engine sea rating?
 
3

350DRIVER

I think that the response posted by "Icywings" pertaining to the Eagle Jet program says volumes about him and I applaud every other post regarding this....- the bottom line is that he "BOUGHT" the right seat and in return he took that seat away from a "QUALIFIED" crew member and with thousands of pilots on furlough he is a true disgrace to "our" industry NOT "his" since he is not respected for doing this and to even post an experience on this board is plain stupidity on his part.... It is sad though because he thinks that he "accomplished" something by doing this program which if you look at it in whole and put things into perspective the only things that he has accomplished would be 1) BUYING a job 2) Taking that seat away from a QUALIFIED crew member who has "EARNED" it although that word would not be in his vocabulary 3) A true disgrace to the industry..... It is sad that people like IcyWings would post and be proud of buying a job when their are too many ACCOMPLISHED pilots around here who have paid with blood, sweat, and tears like Falcon driver and many others that are out of jobs and struggling just to get by....

The bottom line is if you have the money their are companies out there like Eagle Jet, Gulfstream, Tab Express and many others that would love to take your money and offer you the world...... Why not EARN something versus going through the back door??
The funny thing is once you progress and try to go to the "majors" one day your past will eat you alive and I would hate to have to justify my actions to a chief pilot on how I "BOUGHT" the right seat/ time and in return I took that position away from a qualified crew member who has paid his dues and who was not able to get the "job" because of people like yourself- Good luck to explaining this.....
 

checkessential

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There is obviously a fundamental misconception by GA types about what actually goes on at the airlines. Simply put, no one gives a hoot what you DID, to get the job you have NOW. It is simply not worthy of discussion, in the cockpit or elsewhere.

You are obviously worthy of where you are, and that's the end of the story. You may debate the ethics of it for years, but rest assured, by the time you get to a major airline interview, chances are someone on that interview team PFT'd himself. No one will ask you to explain how you "stole" a job from some upstanding, ethical pilot. BS.

Be careful though, there are many a scam around. Make a good choice (if you have to), and don't mention PFT unless you are trying to make enemies. Good luck!
 

publisher

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Dead Horse

We have beaten this thing to death.

There are some that get all upset about this, some that do not care, some that want to know what we are talking about.

Forgetting the dabate, the only big fallacy is that any of these programs are taking away a job that an experienced professional pilot. If there is any truth to it, it is that they are taking a job away from another inexperienced underpaid pilot looking to build turbine time.
 

capt_zman

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de727ups,

Great post. If you'll notice, the major majority of people defending the PFT thing are those that simply don't have the experience and/or knowledge to understand the aviation business and how it works.

This board use to be a place where much mentoring took place because its members were people who had experience in the aviation industry, not so anymore. Many monitor this board and feel that their opinion actually has merit because it makes sense to them. If they could only learn that nothing makes sense in this industry, then they'd be one step ahead of the game.

Glad to have an old hand back who can share their knowledge and wisdom with the rest of the board.
 

Icywings2

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why?
I REALLY think I need to clarify something here guys.

First, I am sorry to have started suceh a fire. All I was doing was answering someones question.

Anyway, PLEASE read this and pay attention. I really think it will put much of this to bed.


When we do this program it does not take a job from anyone. I would NEVER do that. I have family and friends that are pilots at various airlines. Some major some regional.

They offer the ability to sit in the right seat of a Metro if you pay the cost of the training. However, that seat not a seat that someone can sit in without doing it this way. They don't and have never hired people to fly in the right seat. Even if there was no one to do the FO program they still would not put a person in the seat. So, since the seat is not a plce where they hire into, they are willing to let someone build experiance by flying a turbo-prop, under 135. The Captain and the FO switch legs, etc.... The idea being that you are building time, etc... Now the program costs do vary from place to place and you only purchase "X" amount of hours. So, after you are done with your say 250 or 500 hours you are done with the program and you move on. You leave with some great flight experiance to hopefully take to a regional in the right seat. You would have to apply like everyone else to get that job though.

So, really look at it like I am paying for flight time, and experiance. I am not taking a job from someone at all.

The airline makes money off of me and I get the experiance for "x" amount of jobs and then take those hours that I have built, add them to my resume and apply for a job somewhere. In fact, Ameriflight won't hire you on unless you meet the same minimums that everyone else applying would meet. If they do hire you, then you go fly a Lance out of CA anf move up the seniority. Yes, I am sure they will look at one of our resumes earlier then someone off the street, but that would be expected anywhere.

One more thing, we really have to carry our weight or we are booted from either training or the program all together. They expect us to fly as if we really had the job adn were getting paid.

Anyway, I hope that clears the air a bit. I would never take a job from someone. In fact, I AGREE with you 100% about someone who would.
 
3

350DRIVER

Icywings-
Once again I will reiterate that this was in no way intended as a personal attack against you or any other pilot BUT an attack on a "program" as a whole that in many pilots minds and beliefs including mine is "wrong" in every sense of the word... I blame the flight schools, 135 operators, and the money hungry management that is behind these programs NOT you.... I think that many are attacking you due to how "you" had replied to others.... The only thing that matters is that "YOU" are happy with what you have done and the experience that you have gained which if that is the case then good for you BUT please don't expect a pat on the back from these guys here .. There are many many pilots that have done these programs and will continue to do them and all we are asking for is a little respect versus "arrogant" replies .......- I can't speak for the other pilots who post here but for me being a CFI instructing a student pilot who is counting on you and your experience to "teach" them properly and "safely" in a C152 is just as exciting and maybee more so than flying the King Air.. We should not be asking what can aviation do for us but what can "we" do for aviation.

Its not all about you against me and who is "better" BUT a tight nit community that has been shaken up and the need to stick together especially on this board where alot of mentoring use to happen.- Icywings I think we have beaten the hell out of this whole PFT thing and I would suggest that it be dropped and move on.. After the recent events that have crippled our industry you are going to take alot of heat on this board and to avoid that I would strongly urge you to private message 135 or other pilots who would be interested in these "programs" versus continuing a public discussion that will never end..


my $.02
 
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