Pathetic Spain

[100LL... Again!]

ATLguy - get the he11 out of my country. I'm buying.



Liberals are generally cowards that are unable to see it.

You have no concept of honor, country, or valor.

There are fates worse than death. The life of a craven coward is one.

You demean those who protect your freedoms and country (such as GWB), because you are too afraid to fight for those freedoms.

You mollify this cowardice by pretending that 'no real threat exists'.

I can't make you see a reality that repulses and terrifies you.

I don't want to fight terror because I am afraid that "they'll get me". I want to fight terror because t is the RIGHT THING TO DO.

This is something liberals are psychologically incapable of understanding. Their idea of the 'right thing to do' is anything that keeps them safley drinking lattes as members of the elite chattering class. Even as soldiers die for ther freedoms.

Ungrateful, and shameful.

 

[ATL2CDG]

100LL... Again!:

Your country? I beg to differ. This country belongs to us all, despite our political views. It's the conservative arrogance such as yours (the mentality of 'If you don't think exactly like me, you're not a real American') that is fracturing this nation to its core. Why do you think liberals are up in arms at the moment? One reason is because of egocentric individuals such as yourself questioning our loyalty and 'patriotism'.

I hate war. I hate death. I hate the destruction of homes, businesses and places of worship. I hate the flaunting of law, both domestic and international. I hate extremism in any form.

My grandfather was a command sergeant major (E-9) in the U.S. Army. He served honorably in Europe, Korea, Vietnam and elsewhere. He helped to instruct both NCOICs and officers. He was a highly decorated, brave and honorable man. However, he fought 'til his dying breath for the freedom of individuals to think without fear. He supported the right to burn Old Glory in protest. He highlighted the importance of the rule of law, not of the rule of a man. He advocated free, vibrant and open political dialogue from all points on the spectrum. I know all about honor, country and valor; a uniform and blind allegiance do NOT equal these things - the courage to stand up for what I believe, in defense of those that cannot utter the words, is a closer approximation than what you would have me believe. I don't have to fly an F-15, load muntions in a Bradley or take a beachhead to have honor and valor. And, trust me, you are NOT a judge of these virtues; my family, my church and my God judge my actions. Your ramblings, while well-intended, have no bearing on me or my beliefs.

You speak of me 'demean[ing] those who protect [my] freedom'. I have nothing but the utmost respect for those valient men and women serving on the frontline. While I may hate what they must do, I recognize and value the price that thousands have paid for my right to dissent.

G.W. Bush has done little to protect my freedoms and country. He has order innocent soldiers and officers to violate the fundemental right that the U.S.A. has fought so long to protect: the sovernreignty of a nation, the respect and recognition of a government. He, without justification, provocation or authentication, invaded a sovereign nation, deposed its government and occupied its borders. Saddam Hussein is irrelevant. If another country invaded us, overthrew our government and controlled our country, we'd be up in arms. We have no right to wage war on a country and people who pose no threat to our soil or our citizens. NO evidence of WMD has been found. NO links between Iraqis government and Al-Queda have been proven. NO threat existed.

I never denied a threat existed; I oppose the manner in which that threat is being handled. War begets war. Death begets death. Hate begets hate. Since the 'war on terrorism' began, I've seen little positive change in muslim extremists beliefs or desires; doesn't that tell you something?

I see the reality. Our government's handling of the situation is what repulses and terrifies me. Can you really blame the extremists for their anger (not their actions; nothing justifies the killing of innocents)? The U.S. has time and time again bled the Arab world and its Islamic people. Time and time again the U.S. forced its ideas and its culture on a people unwilling and unable to accept them. I don't need you to help me see that too many in the U.S. are convinced that 'it's our way or the highway.' Not everyone wants to drive an SUV, smoke Marlboro's, drink Budweiser and go to church only on Easter and Christmas. This is a BIG world and there thousands of different beliefs, ideas, cultures and dreams.

You're not fighting terror; you're fighting a global movement of hatred towards the imposition of 'the American dream' and the Christian faith. The extremists are sick of us flooding their countries with missionaries, Coca-Cola and Britney Spears. Imagine how you would feel if, in a non-violent manner, thousands of Hindu missionaries flooded your home state, while Perrier was forced in your face and 400 lbs opera singers graced billboards all around? We need to let these people lead their lives the way they want and quit fostering the hatred and disgust they have for us.

Get over your latte-laden dream image of liberals. We're not the only one's that 'chatter', as you put it - just tune in to FOXNews. Conservatives are known for flapping their jaws too. Neither side has it right. Neither side is perfect. Neither side will 'win'.

There is nothing shameful with dissent. George Washington and thousand of British colonists dissented again the British Crown. Abraham Lincoln dissented again the bigots. Roosevelt dissented against the tide of facism and imperalism. Jesus dissented against the Romans and the elite Jewish priesthood. Dissent is a right and, to a degree, a patriotic thing to do. I'm sorry you feel that we should all be blind sheep to the government, but my pity is not going to change how I feel.

TysV

 

[empenage]

ALT2CDG,

Staying, going , staying, going???

If desent is what you're all about you better stay in this country. You'll be thrown in jail or killed in any other country you go to.

How old was your grandfather?? My dad served in Korea, too young for WWII, too old for Vietnam.

 

[darling pretty]

Just a point of clarification in this mud-slinging thread. Aznar was not up for re-election, his party was. Aznar had pledged not to run for a third term as part of his last campaign speech.

My $.02 says this is a classic example of the media spin we are constantly exposed to. The media is reporting it as we (the U.S.) are responsible for Aznar not being re-elected when he never was a candidate.

By the way, I have the means to move to another country and would never consider leaving this most beautiful Columbia.

 

[countbat]

Well said ATL2CDG and right on the money. However I have to make 2 small corrections. Roosevelt desented just against the tide of fascism and Jesus desented just against the elite Jewish priesthood. It's good to see open minded people for a change.

 

[Mr. Cole]

I'm with you ATL2CDG. I'm sure you'll again be attacked and called some vile name, but I doubt anyone will actually address any of the points you made. That's the problem I have with threads like this. You made what I consider a number of good points that I agree with. Others will not agree with some or any and I respect that right. But few of those people will actually pick apart your post and tell you why they disagree with a particular issue. And on cue I'll probably be accused of being some blind liberal left wing cook for agreeing with you.

Dave

 

[Dizel8]

Mr. Cole you are blind liberal left wing cook for agreeing with ATL2CDG.

I did not want to leave you hanging!

 

[Mr. Cole]

Why yes, I do like to cook. How did you know? But being blind often makes it hard to add ingredients.

 

[46Driver]

Well, I will make the rebuttal as a hotel has just been destroyed in downtown Baghdad killing who knows how many civilians.

I, like you, hate war and death. However, there are worse things. You would capitulate all in the name of peace, peace at any costs. I will stand my ground and fight for my beliefs.

This country does belong to all of us. However, the fracture began with the Vietnam War and is now a complete cultural war between the Democrats and the Republicans. Your perception of Republicans is one of arrogance. Many of our perceptions of Democrats are the same: the liberal elite of New York's Upper West Side and Hollywood.

Patriotism? Our perceptions of Democrats are of Woodstock, of spitting on returning veterans, of Jane Fonda in the uniform of the NVA sitting in a VC anti-aircraft gun, of subjugating US national interest to Kofi Annan and the UN.

Concerning the invasion of another "sovereign" country - what you are alluding to is the debate now on the international stage between the principles of the Treaty of Westphalia (the idea that a nation has complete sovereignty within its borders) and the idea of universal human rights (that the principle of human rights takes precedence over sovereignty). That argument is being fought on much larger scales and higher intellects than here on this board.

As for waging a war, it was to take Saddam Hussein out of power - not against the Iraqi people. For reference, realize that the polls by the liberal BBC show that the majority of Iraqis are glad we invaded and that they think their future is better off now.

WMD? Every intelligence agency and leaders of both parties (I can provide quotes if you like) said that Saddam had the weapons and we should remove them. And even a President as weak and pacifist as Carter recognized that Middle Eastern Oil is in our "vital national interest" (the Carter Doctrine). We can not allow another nation to threaten our supply of oil. Its not pretty, but that is reality. Oil (and soon to be freshwater) are 2 critical natural resources that WILL be fought over.

War begets war. Appeasement invites war. Take your pick. And remember that they started "the war on terrorism" with the bombings of the World Trade Towers.

The US bleeding the Arab world? We have tried many times to be a peacemaker in that part of the world. However, when faced with the - multiple - attempts to kill all of the Israelis and drive them into the sea by the combined Arab nations, the US had no choice. Even today, take a look at Syria's national flag - it shows the 2 stars of the United Arab Republic of 1958 when they combined with Egypt, one purpose of which was to drive Israel into the sea.

We are not "forcing" our culture upon anybody - it is being "pulled" into these countries. Nobody forces anyone to wear Levis, drink Coca-Cola, and watch Britney Spears - that is a conscious decision made by the people of those countries. And if money wasn't to be made by consumer demand, our corporations would not be over there. In other words, the masses of the people want it as evidenced by their purchases - it is the Muslim extremists trying to roll this back.

Finally, dissent is as American as apple pie (and if you are going to use it 6 times in a paragraph, please get it right). I have no problem with that. What you are seeing is a cultural war within the US coupled with the realities of foreign policy. Try reading Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations". On the last part, I am not trying to be condescending, rather pointing out a very good thesis of what is happening, why, and what the future may hold.

 

[Fly2Scuba]

France now in the crosshairs

Even though France wasn't part of the Iraq coalition (darn frogs), they're being targeting by Muslim extremists. Bet you Europe starts asking for some serious US assistance...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/03/17/france.threats/index.html