Part 91 and supplement with 135

[SheGaveMeClap]

Do any of you guys out there use your airplane on a 135 certificate to supplement your 91 flying?

Here's my theory. An owner buys an airplane and flys it 100-150 hours per year. They want to put more hours on it in a year, but they don't have the need to fly anymore, so they decide to fly it 8-10 hours per month Part 135.

In my current job, we do alot of Sentient trips. They treat us well and we have a great relationship with them. If the owner above buys an airplane, does Sentient have a Part 135 certificate you could put the airplane on and fly for them 3 or 4 days per month to get that additional 8-10 hours of flying per month?

I think in the next 3-5 years, the said owner would utilize the airplane 200-250 hours per year and not have to worry about the additional Part 135 flying, but in the meantime it might be convenient.

Any ideas?

 

[rice]

Do any of you guys out there use your airplane on a 135 certificate to supplement your 91 flying?

Here's my theory. An owner buys an airplane and flys it 100-150 hours per year. They want to put more hours on it in a year, but they don't have the need to fly anymore, so they decide to fly it 8-10 hours per month Part 135.

In my current job, we do alot of Sentient trips. They treat us well and we have a great relationship with them. If the owner above buys an airplane, does Sentient have a Part 135 certificate you could put the airplane on and fly for them 3 or 4 days per month to get that additional 8-10 hours of flying per month?

I think in the next 3-5 years, the said owner would utilize the airplane 200-250 hours per year and not have to worry about the additional Part 135 flying, but in the meantime it might be convenient.

Any ideas?

Doing 135 on top of 91 work SUCKS!!!!!!!!
IF you do it, get it writing that the crew has the discretion to turn down ANY 135 trip they choose as long as they attain the agreed upon total # of charter hours/year. YOU must keep control of your life and if you don't have it agreed upon in advance and IN WRITING you don't have squat!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes I believe Sentient does have a certificate, they purchased Altantic Aviation Flight Services about a year ago.

 

[G100driver]

Doing 135 on top of 91 work SUCKS!!!!!!!!
IF you do it, get it writing that the crew has the discretion to turn down ANY 135 trip they choose as long as they attain the agreed upon total # of charter hours/year. YOU must keep control of your life and if you don't have it agreed upon in advance and IN WRITING you don't have squat!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes I believe Sentient does have a certificate, they purchased Altantic Aviation Flight Services about a year ago.

Excellent advice!

 

[HMR]

Rice said it PERFECTLY. Also, Sentient would love to use your plane more than "8-10hrs" per month. They're not in business to make your life easy, they want to make money- primarily for themselves. However, if there's anything left over for the owner... (yeah right, like that ever happens).

I worked for a family that put their jet on contract with Sentient to do some "extra" flying. Sentient ended up putting 40-50+ hrs a month on the plane, the charter pax beat the crap out of the interior and the family wound up chartering other aircraft since their's seemed to be permanantly parked on the other side of the country @ TEB.

After a few years they decided they couldn't really afford a private jet (since charter netted zero dollars for them) and sold the plane.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

I understand flying 135 on top of 91 sucks. I can appreciate that, believe me. We are in a part of the country where its inconvenient for Sentient to use us too much. We are far away from either coast and not many trips originate in our area. We work with Sentient right now, and they are extremely flexible. Maybe it's a unique situation, but they give us as many or as little hours per month as we would like. It's a great relationship.

The potential owner needs the airplane at our home base because there's an occassional pop-up (24-48 hours notice), and the airplane couldn't be on one coast or the other. Any trips that would work out part 135 would have to be day trips, getting back home in the evening. There's not many trips like that, so their use would be very limited. And on top of that, the owner wouldn't want anymore than 10 hours per month because it would be too hard on the plane.

He doesn't need extra flying to offset the cost of ownership, but would like to keep the airplane a little more busy than 10-15 hours per month that he'd use it.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

 

[HMR]

He doesn't need extra flying to offset the cost of ownership, but would like to keep the airplane a little more busy than 10-15 hours per month that he'd use it.

Just curious- What's the point in keeping the plane "a little more busy" if it doesn't offset the cost of ownership?

Does your boss have any friends in the area who'd be interested in using the plane? A dry-lease arrangement might be worth looking into.

FWIW- We've been flying 10-15 hrs a month for the past 2 years. The plane stays in great shape and if we feel like we're getting rusty there's plenty of contract work to do (I'm on a 5 day contract trip now). No complaints from the boss (or us).

 

[Freight Dog]

Doing 135 on top of 91 work SUCKS!!!!!!!!
IF you do it, get it writing that the crew has the discretion to turn down ANY 135 trip they choose as long as they attain the agreed upon total # of charter hours/year. YOU must keep control of your life and if you don't have it agreed upon in advance and IN WRITING you don't have squat!!!!!!!!!!!

Excellent advice! Not having this clause in your WRITTEN agreement with the owner should be a deal breaker.

Speaking from experience......

 

[CorpLearDriver]

I understand flying 135 on top of 91 sucks. I can appreciate that, believe me. We are in a part of the country where its inconvenient for Sentient to use us too much. We are far away from either coast and not many trips originate in our area. We work with Sentient right now, and they are extremely flexible. Maybe it's a unique situation, but they give us as many or as little hours per month as we would like. It's a great relationship.

The potential owner needs the airplane at our home base because there's an occassional pop-up (24-48 hours notice), and the airplane couldn't be on one coast or the other. Any trips that would work out part 135 would have to be day trips, getting back home in the evening. There's not many trips like that, so their use would be very limited. And on top of that, the owner wouldn't want anymore than 10 hours per month because it would be too hard on the plane.

He doesn't need extra flying to offset the cost of ownership, but would like to keep the airplane a little more busy than 10-15 hours per month that he'd use it.

Anyway, thanks for the opinions.

There is a fundamental difference between flying Part 91 and 135. Under part 91, you are not generating revenue for the company and thus, are a support operation for the whole. Under 135, the primary purpose is to generate revenue, hopefully to offset some of your expenses, not generate new ones. It is also the operator's (not the owner's) purpose to make as much money off of the aircraft as possible. The owner has the airplane for his convenience and if it isn't there when he needs it, that's not convenient.

The next thought is are you getting paid any extra for flying 135 trips or the same salary? Or, is there an additional crewmember assigned to the airplane to allow for the current crewmembers to have some sort of life? The operators always seem to sell the deal to owners that they can get 150 more hours out of an airplane and its crew at no extra salary expense, thus reducing the owners costs per hour. But to get those 150 hours more out of the pilot per year, how many days is it going to take away from the pilot's life at no extra income. As someone already said, doing 135 on top of 91 sucks.

Each situation is different. A few years back we tried it and it did not work with the owner’s schedule. When we returned to home base, the operator would try and generate the hours any way he could with short trips which cost more in fuel burn and higher cycles on the aircraft. We ended up pulling the plug on it. If you do 135, set it up from the start with the option of turning down a trip if it does not meet your minimum criteria. It will allow you to fly your 8 - 10 hours with a minimum amount of days doing so and fly more efficiently in the process.

Generally, I do not favor this arrangement. The owner never gets what he is promised, the crews loose control of their life, the operator is never satisfied enough with just the amount specified but makes the most from the deal and the charter pax abuse the airplane. Just my opinion.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

Does your boss have any friends in the area who'd be interested in using the plane? A dry-lease arrangement might be worth looking into.

FWIW- We've been flying 10-15 hrs a month for the past 2 years. The plane stays in great shape and if we feel like we're getting rusty there's plenty of contract work to do (I'm on a 5 day contract trip now). No complaints from the boss (or us).

The guy buying the airplane (not my boss, but hopefully soon) doesn't think flying 100-150 hours per year justifies owning a jet outright. He has a friend who might lease the jet from him for 100 hours per year. If that works out, it'll be perfect. If it doesn't, he doesn't feel like it makes sense to own it. He subscribes to the old addage: if you fly less than 100 hours per year, charter. If it's between 100 and 400 hours per year, own fractional. If you fly more than 400 hours, then own your own. Since he doesn't fly this much, it doesn't make sense to own one.

He is a pilot himself and wants to own the jet. He detests the idea of owning a fractional share, and he doesn't charter. I don't think he really wants to lease the airplane to a charter company, but he wants the extra time. I don't completely understand it myself. The company he owns is growing at a steady pace and he will probably fly 200+ hours per year in the next two or three years. After that, I don't think he'll feel like he needs to put more time on the airplane more than he flies.

Okay, new question: How do I convince this guy that 100-150 hours per year is sufficient to own the airplane by himself? I have met pilots who fly this amount per year, and I think it's enough time for airplane ownership. What do I say to make him think the same? Looking forward to the replies....

Edit: He doesn't really want to fly this airplane Part 135. He knows it could get beat up by charter pax, it's actually the last resort. The lease with his buddy would be the most desireable, and owning it himself might be more appealing than chartering it out. I think he'd really have to talk himself into leasing it for charter. As the previous poster said, that way it would be available all the time when he needs it.

 

[Count Dracula]

Well, if he detests fractionals and doesn't like to charter then have him fly on the airlines to a meeting say in Fayettville, AR. After all the BS, that 100-150 hours he flies on his corporate jet will be money well spent. I suggest a dry-lease agreement with another person or organization that could use an aircraft a small amount of time (10-15 hours a month) Maybe some marketing of potential business partners or companies in the area would help?

We have a dry-lease agreement with a company that flies the same airplane as we do. We use each other as a backup aircraft, as well as to supplement additional trips in advance. No charter needed and we both fill a need for each other.