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NYT Article on the Airlines...Worst Yet to Come...
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Stifler's Mom
MILF...MILF...MILF
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
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- 5,125
Its driven by the major's requirements....
Its not about the extra pay as a captain.
The problem is the hiring requirement dictated by Southwest, JetBlue, FedEx, and everybody else that is hiring: the necessity of having multi-engine PIC time. Without it, you are trapped as a regional FO. Thus, the only way to escape is for your company to grow so you can upgrade and apply elsewhere. People vote for their own economic self-interest: just like USAir pilots vote for pay cuts, UAL pilots vote to jettison their pensions, Southwest pilots vote to end the Age 60 rule, etc...
Until you see airlines hiring FO's from Comair, ASA, etc instead of captains from companies that you complain are driving down wages, you are not going to see a change...
Its not about becoming a "captain".General Lee said:
Its not about the extra pay as a captain.
The problem is the hiring requirement dictated by Southwest, JetBlue, FedEx, and everybody else that is hiring: the necessity of having multi-engine PIC time. Without it, you are trapped as a regional FO. Thus, the only way to escape is for your company to grow so you can upgrade and apply elsewhere. People vote for their own economic self-interest: just like USAir pilots vote for pay cuts, UAL pilots vote to jettison their pensions, Southwest pilots vote to end the Age 60 rule, etc...
Until you see airlines hiring FO's from Comair, ASA, etc instead of captains from companies that you complain are driving down wages, you are not going to see a change...
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oldxfr8dog
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2004
- Posts
- 533
OK, I'm new around here. But, do you think that $320 per hour had something to do with DL approaching the brink of BK? If not, why did you take a cut and not stand up to mgmnt? You say they have brought the pay down for "decades". You brought it up for 3 years. Good on you... how many years will YOUR cuts keep it down? You have "retired" guys back on the line and double-dipping while DL announced no recalls of the pilots sent home. When is your planned work action over THOSE junior guys? I'll bet those JUNIOR guys are banging their heads against the walls. Of their OWN house...General Lee said:
General Lee
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 24, 2002
- Posts
- 20,442
oldxfr8dog,
You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. First of all, we only have 8 777s, so anyone who was a 777 Capt was very very senior. (compared to AA having over 30 777s) Second, how much money do you think each passenger contributed from each ticket per hour? Maybe 80 cents. So, on a trip to Paris the passengers each paid around $7 each (out of $300-400 each way) for the Captain's experience. Also, do you think our Delta 777 Captains sold the fuel hedges and lost an extra $600 million this year? Oh, that's right---I remember one of them saying "hey, let's pay more for gas because it is fun...." Come on. You sound like management's best friend.
As far as our furloughs go, yeah, they probably are banging their heads. But, a chapter 11 would have made their stay out even longer, because more would have joined them. And, do you have a better idea when 500 senior guys want to retire and only have to give 24 hours notice? That sounds like it could park every widebody, and that would really help our financial situation. Do you have a better idea? At least those guys will eventually go, and why do I know that? Because the IRS said so---they don't like the double dipping much either. Taking your lump sum and still working kinda irks the IRS, and a deal was made for a specific amount of time. Many of those retired guys are in their mid 50's, so actually the furloughs will come back sooner than if those guys stayed until they were 60. It sounded like the best deal for a bad situation. That $ucks, but the alternative was worse. Good night.
Bye Bye--General Lee
You have NO CLUE what you are talking about. First of all, we only have 8 777s, so anyone who was a 777 Capt was very very senior. (compared to AA having over 30 777s) Second, how much money do you think each passenger contributed from each ticket per hour? Maybe 80 cents. So, on a trip to Paris the passengers each paid around $7 each (out of $300-400 each way) for the Captain's experience. Also, do you think our Delta 777 Captains sold the fuel hedges and lost an extra $600 million this year? Oh, that's right---I remember one of them saying "hey, let's pay more for gas because it is fun...." Come on. You sound like management's best friend.
As far as our furloughs go, yeah, they probably are banging their heads. But, a chapter 11 would have made their stay out even longer, because more would have joined them. And, do you have a better idea when 500 senior guys want to retire and only have to give 24 hours notice? That sounds like it could park every widebody, and that would really help our financial situation. Do you have a better idea? At least those guys will eventually go, and why do I know that? Because the IRS said so---they don't like the double dipping much either. Taking your lump sum and still working kinda irks the IRS, and a deal was made for a specific amount of time. Many of those retired guys are in their mid 50's, so actually the furloughs will come back sooner than if those guys stayed until they were 60. It sounded like the best deal for a bad situation. That $ucks, but the alternative was worse. Good night.
Bye Bye--General Lee
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climbhappy
ex pat
- Joined
- Aug 11, 2002
- Posts
- 2,159
Gordon Bethune said it best....
"until there is some rational thinking put into pricing strategy, you'll keep seeing losses in the industry.
two weeks ago, American cancelled a $10 add on , because SWA dodn't follow, nor did anyone else.
The problem is the service is rarely distinguishable. his Airbus is just like mine, and his cost less, so I fly it. Consumers get the benefit. Does all this passenger traffic mean squat if salaries, benefits and profits are in the toilet.
SWA hung in long enough for a huge change in buyer preferences to have kicked in.
That is why GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY OF AIRLINES IS WRONG.
when the number of players is reduced then prices will go back up.
"until there is some rational thinking put into pricing strategy, you'll keep seeing losses in the industry.
two weeks ago, American cancelled a $10 add on , because SWA dodn't follow, nor did anyone else.
The problem is the service is rarely distinguishable. his Airbus is just like mine, and his cost less, so I fly it. Consumers get the benefit. Does all this passenger traffic mean squat if salaries, benefits and profits are in the toilet.
SWA hung in long enough for a huge change in buyer preferences to have kicked in.
That is why GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY OF AIRLINES IS WRONG.
when the number of players is reduced then prices will go back up.
GuppyPuppy
Living the Dream
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2001
- Posts
- 803
I can understand your frustration that Delta is giving more flying away to the regionals. That affects your pocketbook. But, what about members of the ALPA clan who have been flying a B757 for B737 (or less) wages? Shouldn't you be blaming them too?General Lee said:
Had ALPA converted themselves to a real union and insisted on a national seniority list where the individual pilot is employed by the union I think we could have avoided all these problems.
GP
doh
Jump seat shrink
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2003
- Posts
- 4,017
Oldxfr8dog,
I have to say this again, pilot pay is not the core villain here! I can't tell you how many times I used to read in the paper one article saying the Delta pilots are the highest paid and then turned the page to read that US Airways has the highest pilot costs!?! How can this be? The fleet mix at U was (is) so messed up. Go look on the ramp. U had every type of airplane known to man. That's too many pilots off line doing training, managing, andtoo many training cycles generated! That is poor management pure and simple! You can mask that some what by getting pay cuts but you can't cure it. U is still bleeding cash and their pilot pay is abyssmal! Have a nice day!
I have to say this again, pilot pay is not the core villain here! I can't tell you how many times I used to read in the paper one article saying the Delta pilots are the highest paid and then turned the page to read that US Airways has the highest pilot costs!?! How can this be? The fleet mix at U was (is) so messed up. Go look on the ramp. U had every type of airplane known to man. That's too many pilots off line doing training, managing, andtoo many training cycles generated! That is poor management pure and simple! You can mask that some what by getting pay cuts but you can't cure it. U is still bleeding cash and their pilot pay is abyssmal! Have a nice day!
fredgalaxy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2002
- Posts
- 10
OK. You fat cats crack me up. Every regional pilot should quit right now in order to help the legacy wages stay in tact. When Delta recovers from the brink of BK, they will be sure to hire a guy who hasn't been flying. Application says: "Recent Flying Experience: I quit my regional flying job in order to stop the race to the bottom to save the industry." Are you and the cronies at the other airlines going to take me seriously? Give me a break. You sit here and bash regional guys when they have little choice. There aren't too many options if pilots want to have a flying career. If you can't get picked up by a major, you pretty much fly with a regional carrier. As for SkyWest's rates--no one really believed there would be 70 seaters on the property during the 18-month TA. Plus if they had voted it down, it would have been delivered to them anyway down their throats. Supposedly there will be separate scales when the new pay agreement comes about. Turn the judgement glasses inward for a moment!
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