NetJets Recalls

[Hogprint]

Excellent post brokeflyer and fischman!!!! May be, NOW he'll get it...... 34 years!!! OH NO!!!!!!

Thirty-four years...what's the old saying...can't teach an old dog new tricks...

Here is some outhouse reading for all the hero's who think flying "a little tired" is OK...NASA produced these studies BTW.

 

[realityman]

Didn't fly because I was sick a couple times, just haven't been fatigued enough to cancel. No commentary on those who legitimately fatigue, it just seems strange to fatigue so much when we are protected by the rules. I don't quite understand the rabid posts, however.

How about this: Just this past tour, we had 4 really easy days in the beginning of the tour. All day shift. On day 5, we do two short hops in late afternoon. Then get told we are needed for a recovery that had us flying all night and landing at 6AM on the east coast. We were pretty fresh and took the trip. No problem there. So we check in to the hotel at 6AM. Of course, by the time we get to the hotel we're very tired. They have us coming back on duty at 6PM that same day and doing a short hop at 11PM that night. Guess what happens around 8AM at the hotel? People are moving around. Doors slamming. People shouting to each other in the hallways. Maids running vacuums in the adjacent rooms. The sun is up and the curtains aren't keeping out all the light. Not to mention that even though we're tired, we're working against our bodies own circadian rhythms. How much sleep do you think we got? I talked to my partner when we came back on duty and he, like me, only got about 5 hours of actual sleep.

We felt rested enough to do the one quick hop they had us scheduled for that night, but do you really think we would have been out of line if they had dropped a transcon on us and we had fatigued? Because we talked it over and decided ahead of time that we weren't rested enough to do any long duty period that night.

While certain factors (maids running vacuums in adjacent rooms and loud folks in the hallways) are out of the company's control, they still affect us, the pilots who deal with those factors, on a daily basis.
But how do the rules protect us from the repeated big circadian shifts the company throws at us all the time? Sorry, but there are numerous gaping holes in the rules that allow the company to schedule us until we fall back on the fatigue rule. And when pilots become reluctant to use the fatigue rule because they want to help out the company/owners, then the rules aren't providing much protection at all, now are they?

And even the rules we do have aren't necessarily all that safety-oriented. 14 hours of duty in a 24-hour period? Hey, I think it's great we can't be forced past that, but if you think about it, that's still a very long day! The average American only works 8 hours a day, but we can go 75% longer than that in a safety sensitive job like flying, and that's safe?! The fact that we operate like that on a daily basis with very few incidents is a great testament to our professionalism and skill, but doesn't constitute proof that "the rules" we operate under protect us and are safety-focused.

 

[G4dude]

"A little tired" is fatigued. I think what the guys here are saying is that when you are "a little tired" you aren't doing anyone any favors by getting in the cockpit. Make the call, get rested. That is what the company and the union WANT you to do.

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

 

[G4dude]

How about this: Just this past tour, we had 4 really easy days in the beginning of the tour. All day shift. On day 5, we do two short hops in late afternoon. Then get told we are needed for a recovery that had us flying all night and landing at 6AM on the east coast. We were pretty fresh and took the trip. No problem there. So we check in to the hotel at 6AM. Of course, by the time we get to the hotel we're very tired. They have us coming back on duty at 6PM that same day and doing a short hop at 11PM that night. Guess what happens around 8AM at the hotel? People are moving around. Doors slamming. People shouting to each other in the hallways. Maids running vacuums in the adjacent rooms. The sun is up and the curtains aren't keeping out all the light. Not to mention that even though we're tired, we're working against our bodies own circadian rhythms. How much sleep do you think we got? I talked to my partner when we came back on duty and he, like me, only got about 5 hours of actual sleep.

We felt rested enough to do the one quick hop they had us scheduled for that night, but do you really think we would have been out of line if they had dropped a transcon on us and we had fatigued? Because we talked it over and decided ahead of time that we weren't rested enough to do any long duty period that night.

While certain factors (maids running vacuums in adjacent rooms and loud folks in the hallways) are out of the company's control, they still affect us, the pilots who deal with those factors, on a daily basis.
But how do the rules protect us from the repeated big circadian shifts the company throws at us all the time? Sorry, but there are numerous gaping holes in the rules that allow the company to schedule us until we fall back on the fatigue rule. And when pilots become reluctant to use the fatigue rule because they want to help out the company/owners, then the rules aren't providing much protection at all, now are they?

And even the rules we do have aren't necessarily all that safety-oriented. 14 hours of duty in a 24-hour period? Hey, I think it's great we can't be forced past that, but if you think about it, that's still a very long day! The average American only works 8 hours a day, but we can go 75% longer than that in a safety sensitive job like flying, and that's safe?! The fact that we operate like that on a daily basis with very few incidents is a great testament to our professionalism and skill, but doesn't constitute proof that "the rules" we operate under protect us and are safety-focused.

Good post, but i don't see where 5 hours of sleep is unsafe. Coffee helps. If the 5 hours sleep happens 2 or 3 nights consecutively, that would be fatiguing, however. No argument there.

 

[G4dude]

Thirty-four years...what's the old saying...can't teach an old dog new tricks...

Here is some outhouse reading for all the hero's who think flying "a little tired" is OK...NASA produced these studies BTW.

Not being a "hero," just disagree on what constitutes Fatigue.

 

[hopalong]

Not being a "hero," just disagree on what constitutes Fatigue.

"You must be really proud" and I quote.......

 

[OPECJet]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

Are you freaking serious? If you are "uncomfortably" tired, you are unsafe. End of story. Educate yourself......

 

[ProFracPilot]

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. A little tired is not unsafe, just uncomfortable, it seems to me, with all due respect. And I couldn't care LESS what the Union wants me to do.

Cumulative fatigue is insidious and usually not recognizable until it is too late. Most of us have failed to call fatigue when we should have, what with being mission oriented and all that. I know my line has moved more towards safety (earlier fatigue calls). Unfortunately it took a couple of ASAP reports before I recognized a pattern.

I can't tell if you're flying as Captain. If not, and for the sake of your pax and crew, I hope your FO has the cojones to call fatigue when you should - and you don't.

Fly safe-

pfp

 

[imacdog]

Those pilots who do not recognize their own vulnerabilities are the most dangerous ones in the sky.

 

[transpac]

There's a difference between being tired and being what most people call fatigued. Anyone who states they've never flown while tired is a liar.