majority of pilots pencil whip??

[Timebuilder]

As a young man, I knew very few kids who would cheat on an exam, even in the public school I attended before fifth grade.

Now, cheating is rampant at high schools and universities, and also at the service academies. The common rationalization is that since "everyone else" is doing it, "I must do it to stay competitive".

The ends do not justify the means. Check out Robert Bork's Slouching Toward Gomorrah.

 

[bigD]

Well Timebuilder, that may be more of a function of the kinds of people you chose to be around while growing up. Although I have witnessed students at my highschool copy an assignment or two from one another, I've never witnessed any cheating on exams. At my University (which granted is limited to the physics department), I haven't seen any dishonest behavior from anyone.

Now I'm not saying it doesn't happen, because I don't generally find myself around the types of people that engange in that kind of activity. Likewise, the fact that you didn't witness it growing up doesn't necessarily mean that it didn't happen then, either.

 

[LearLove]

Funny thing you say "Maybe it's because I was a kid in the fifties". I find that some of the beggest "out/in pencil whippers" tend to be the older guys who were kids in the fifties or born there abouts. And to top it off these guys call the times in on the radio and its recorded, again Pathetic.

Here's a funny/ironic story in reguards to whipping times. The actual hour times have been changed to protect idenity but you'll get the general jist.

A few summers ago I was on a trip that on say day 2 of a 4 day started in MHT. We showed at 1 pm for a 1:45 sked departure to LGA. Well the inbound flight comming from LGA was delayed (go figure, like that never happens) due to traffic congestion bla, bla, bla. We check their out time in Sabre that showed they "pushed" 5 early, but a note was in there as they were to be late for "extended taxi due to traffic congestion at LGA" Anyway the inbound was sked to be at MHT at 1:25 allowing us 20 to swap crews and load for the return trip. The flight actually lands at 1:50 (1:50 as noted by our Capt.) and we swap crews load it up and call out at 2:20 and go to LGA. (2:20 was the actual time of braking brake release, no whipping there). A 30 minute turn, HEY ITS A MAINLINE STATION, DID YOU ACTUALLY EXPECT THEM TO RUSH/PUT SOME EFFORT INTO IT.
So two weeks later I get this "letter of accomidation" in the mail from the company for turning the airplane in 10 minutes at MHT and helping all the pax make connections bla, bla, bla. I'm thinking to myself 10 minute turn it was more like 30 and I can remember it because of the lousy boarding and loading of the mainline rampers. It turns out when I went into sabre to check it the inbound crew padded/whipped their inbound time by like 15 to 20 minutes (most likely for pay purposes) and the mainline guy in ops doesn't care besause that just gives them more time to turn the aircraft and still look like they worked fast. So now we have guys cheating/stealing from the company by padding time for more pay and the stations looking the other way. But to top it all off the company gives the outbound crew an award. I found it funny that I got an award/letter of accomidation for someone else screwing the company, tell me thats not F'd up.

 

[Timebuilder]

BigD, I only know what I experienced in my blue collar steel mill town outside of Philadelphia. We had a large public school with mostly tract home and trailer park kids. The biggest offense in my school was failing to address a teacher by either "sir" or "ma'am". I don't think you'll find this to be the case today.

LearLove, sounds like your company needs to clean house.

 

[bigD]

Mr. Builder - you're definitely right about times changing. Kids aren't as polite or respectful of their elders, we've been desensitized to violence, sex, and various other "bad things" by television and the media.

We're certainly a different generation than those before us. Just like the prior generations were unlike the ones before them.

But it's dangerous to paint with such a large brush, and I guess I feel the need to defend myself because I'd much prefer to be judged *after* someone determines the nature of my character - not based on my age alone.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Everytime I read this board I see pilots whining about something. Whining about low pay, or whining about PFT, or whining about how hard it is to find a job or whining about unions or scope or the TSA or ATC or the FAA or some other D@MN thing that is ruining the industry and screwing pilots. The tone of the whine is usually about how pilots are screwing each other and lowering the standards of the industry.

Hell, even a pilot's wife was whining about low pay this week. It took all the discipline I had not to reply to that.


And then we come to this pencil whipping logbooks. For all the perceived harm from everything under the sun as it pertains to flying, and how pilots everywhere are F*&%CKING this industry by taking low pay or paying for training or god knows what else, I can't believe that those of you who are the first to spout off about how unfair the wages are or how wrong it is to work for free or even (gasp) PFT are nowhere to be found on this thread.

There can be no greater insult to pilots that the lie in your logbook.... and for some reason no one rails on it like they rail on their pet issues. I guess honor and courage are not much in vogue anymore.

To the pilots who have posted to say its wrong I applaud you. To the rest, I'll say that if you tolerate it then you are guilty of it.

 

[localizer11]

When I was working on my private, a CFI told me this story:

A young instructor is working hard and trying to build time. He wants a part 135 job really bad, but doesn't have the multi time. So one day he starts to pencil whip time into his logbook, using a Cessna 310' s tail number he sees at the airport. He gets the 135 job and everything seems fine. Eventually, he needs an ATP and goes up for the checkride. During the oral, the DE is spending a lot of time going over his logbook. Finally the DE asks " I see you have a lot of time in twin cessna 123XX. " The pilot responds in the affirmative. The DE looks at him and says "That's impossible, 123XX is MY airplane." Needless to say, the pilot's career ended that day.

Even if it doesn't seem wrong or unethical for some to pad their logbook, things like this tend to catch up with people. He'll always have to look over his shoulder.

 

[fr8doggydog]

The peace of mind I have from honest logbooks far outweigh any benefit I might have gotten from pencil whipping. I'm sure many do, and few get caught, but most recruiters and examiners can spot scammers a mile away if it doesn't reflect in their flying skills.

 

[Whirlwind]

When I was working on my private, a CFI told me this story:

A young instructor is working hard and trying to build time. He wants a part 135 job really bad, but doesn't have the multi time. So one day he starts to pencil whip time into his logbook, using a Cessna 310' s tail number he sees at the airport. He gets the 135 job and everything seems fine. Eventually, he needs an ATP and goes up for the checkride. During the oral, the DE is spending a lot of time going over his logbook. Finally the DE asks " I see you have a lot of time in twin cessna 123XX. " The pilot responds in the affirmative. The DE looks at him and says "That's impossible, 123XX is MY airplane." Needless to say, the pilot's career ended that day.

Even if it doesn't seem wrong or unethical for some to pad their logbook, things like this tend to catch up with people. He'll always have to look over his shoulder.

Which of course just goes to show the guy is an idiot. That may or may not have happened, but I'm sure similar things have.

The only reasonably safe way to pencil whip time is to buy your own airplane. Then no one can question how much you actually flew it.

Of course, if you can afford your own airplane, why not just fly the damm thing and get the hours the honest way?

True story: I flew my 172 two nights ago, thought I had flown 1.5 hours on the Hobbs. Turns out when I came in the next day, I had flown 1.1 hours, I read it wrong the night before. Yes, I opened up my log book and corrected it down to 1.1 hours from 1.5. No one would ever know, it is my own airplane. That doesn't matter, it would be wrong to lie and keep the time that I didn't fly in my log.

I also agree that padding log books is the worst thing a pilot can do. Worse than working for free, or PFT, or low wages, or anything. Lying about your time is, well, just wrong.

Jason

 

[Timebuilder]

I'd much prefer to be judged *after* someone determines the nature of my character - not based on my age alone.

In order to keep bad generalizations from happening, various groups need to police themselves. If kids don't want the burden of the release of university studies that clearly shows that cheating, whether in relationships, on tests, or in the workplace (can you say Jayson Blair? I knew you could...) is far above and beyond what is was when I was in school, then the answer is to refuse to tolerate it from your peers. This is the reason that "character classes" are becoming more common recently. The basis of this decline is the destruction of the American family.

The same applies to Americans of mideastern origins. Thanks to others from your group, people are now suspicious of you. Therefore, you need to go that extra mile to make certain that no one you know or love is involved in anything but ridding the US of the kind of high profile terrorism that we saw on September 11th.

The best defense against a negative generalization is to prevent the formation of the factual basis upon which it is built. The best defense is a good offense.