landing flap settings at a class "G" airport

[midlifeflyer]

Less flaps=less power required=less noise.

My bad. I understood that part. What I was confused about was why a Class G airport in the middle of nowhere with nothing along the approach path was more deserving of protection than a Class D in a busy residential area.

I completely forgot that 91.126 is incorporated into the higher categories.

So, in effect, the "minimum flap setting" rule applies to landings at all public use airports?

 

[Spooky 2]

Alternate landing flaps

Virtually all Boeing aircraft have two landing flap settings. i.e., the B 737, 727 757,767,777, 747 all have an alternate flap 25 landing flap along with the "normal" flap 30 setting. In addition there is full data under their respective QRH Performance tabs. Both the DC10 and MD11 have similar alternative settings which will reduce the noise footprint.

Many European airports ask for these alternate configurations along with minimum use of reversae thrust. All of this is done with the caveate that safety of flight takes presedence over these noise abatement procedures.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Minimum Flap Settings

From a former FAA inspector (me). When I teach a course on how to handle a FAA ramp check, that is exactly the reg that I use to trip someone up.

I first say that you are landing your "N" registered (civil) turbojet (not prop) aircraft today on a 10,000' runway at sea level with a dry runway and no obstructions.

Then I ask the following:
1. Are you the PIC?
2. Was this a checkride,training or certification ride?
3. Did you have any problems/emergencies?
4. What flap setting did you use for landing?

The answers are usually, yes, no, no and full.

Then I thank them and tell them they will receive a letter after ten days. (I don't want them to file a NASA report)

I just got all the info I needed to violate them for a violation of FAR 91.126(c). Now isn't that a bunch of hooey? I don't think anyone has ever been violated for that reg but it is a good example for my ramp check briefing.

The reg came about in the '70s to try to have a reduction in noise levels for all those Stage 1 aircraft out there. It was not well thought out then and I have responded to the latest request by the FAA for our ideas on what regs need to be changed or eliminated with this one.

 

[Spooky 2]

From a former FAA inspector (me). When I teach a course on how to handle a FAA ramp check, that is exactly the reg that I use to trip someone up.

I first say that you are landing your "N" registered (civil) turbojet (not prop) aircraft today on a 10,000' runway at sea level with a dry runway and no obstructions.

Then I ask the following:
1. Are you the PIC?
2. Was this a checkride,training or certification ride?
3. Did you have any problems/emergencies?
4. What flap setting did you use for landing?

The answers are usually, yes, no, no and full.

Then I thank them and tell them they will receive a letter after ten days. (I don't want them to file a NASA report)

I just got all the info I needed to violate them for a violation of FAR 91.126(c). Now isn't that a bunch of hooey? I don't think anyone has ever been violated for that reg but it is a good example for my ramp check briefing.

The reg came about in the '70s to try to have a reduction in noise levels for all those Stage 1 aircraft out there. It was not well thought out then and I have responded to the latest request by the FAA for our ideas on what regs need to be changed or eliminated with this one.

Well I'm not sure if your were referencing my previous post regarding final flap settings but I see nothing in FAR 91.126(C) that would change not only my opinion but generally accepted and taught procedures. All of the information for the Boeing product line, lives within their respective QRH. Cab you expand on your comments a little bit, please.

 

[gulfstream2345]

Response to Spooky

As I mentioned, I believe the regulation was ill-conceived to begin with and I am quite certain that no one has ever received a violation for this reg.

You are correct about the alternate flap setting for many airplanes. The A-300/310 has the same type of thing that the Boeings have but we didn't use full flaps very often.

The only way, other than FOQA, that the FAA could be sure that you landed with full flaps is if you told them. No way that they could prove, just by observing visually, that you landed with full flaps. It would just be too hard for them to prove and what would the point be anyway?

Like I mentioned, I just use it for my ramp check example and if the FAA listens to my request then this reg will go away.

 

[GravityHater]

Isn't that the Knee-Jerk "Let's do Something" Thurman Munsen FAR?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Then I ask the following:
1. Are you the PIC?
2. Was this a checkride,training or certification ride?
3. Did you have any problems/emergencies?
4. What flap setting did you use for landing?

The answers are usually, yes, no, no and full.

Then I thank them and tell them they will receive a letter after ten days. (I don't want them to file a NASA report)

I just got all the info I needed to violate them for a violation of FAR 91.126(c). Now isn't that a bunch of hooey? I don't think anyone has ever been violated for that reg but it is a good example for my ramp check briefing.

Is this also the case for a turbojet that DOESN'T have published data for other-than-full flaps, in your opinion?

The reg does specify "minimum certificated".

Fly safe!

David

 

[gulfstream2345]

Class G

If the turbojet does not have published landing distances in the AFM other than full flaps then there is no other flap setting to use other than in an emergency. That would be outside this regulation.

 

[MauleSkinner]

If the turbojet does not have published landing distances in the AFM other than full flaps then there is no other flap setting to use other than in an emergency. That would be outside this regulation.

So you don't actually have enough information to issue a violation with your ramp check scenario?

Fly safe!

David

 

[dispatchguy]

As a dispatcher, I read it this way:

B727 type, available landing flaps 30 and 40

Use Flaps 30 for all normal landings, and 40 if you really really need to to limit the landing roll, or you are going to a short short runway.