JetBlue verses FedEx?

[side stick-n]

Speedracer,

I've never spoken for anyone other than myself. I am only passing along what others have indicated when the discussion has arisen. I also don't take pop shots at others based on their opinions. I may not always agree but I will still respect others ideas. I worked for a very long time for an "organized" carrier (no, not Eastern and no, I'm not a scab) and my opinion is that organization is only necessary under certain situations. Dragonass points out the advantage of organization in the event of a merger or buy-out. Based on our current situation, my opinion is this is the only reason for organization. However, it is also my opinion that the consequenses of such at this point far outweigh the protection that may be gained. You are correct in saying that I am opposed at this point in time. I am, however, also open minded and would not hesitate to change my position if the need presented itself. I hope that never happens as I prefer the current "team" oriented relationship we have. BTW, that 85 hours can be obtained in as little as 12 days. Efficiency leads to low cost per ASM = $$$. Have fun fishing with your kids tomorrow. A healthy ratio of family time to work time is one of our bigger values. I'm glad it is to you also.

 

[JayDub]

Draginass,

First, let me say my head is swimming with thoughts, so pardon me if I don't put this as eloquently or as tactfully as I'd like. I am trying to express myself without trying to offend anyone. Unionization is a sore subject, no matter which side of the fence you are on.

I would suggest not advocating "sharing the pie" right now. At United, that would mean working for less than nothing. Also, unionizing for the sake of unionizing is almost as dumb as not unionizing for the sake of not unionizing.

Our current payscale is the result of a raise we were to receive on Oct. 1. After 9-11, they suspended it until mid-Nov. when we got it, plus retro pay. How many times have you heard of that happening without any negotiations? Also, we got this after they took a survey and found a few key areas, including pay, that needed attention. They made adjustments in all of those identified areas, on their own. Tell me that's not an industry first!

This pay scale puts us between SWA and America West. This is pretty incredible since both of those airlines are not only union, but have been around a lot longer than two years and operate more than 21 airplanes!

As far as unions go, we have to be realistic. jetBlue is a small carrier. Unless you are United or Delta, and now NWA (because of Duane Woerth), you can expect little to no attention from ALPA National. Look at Emery. They were ALPA, paid less than we are, and shut down mainly to SCOPE problems (they refused to even mention SCOPE in their negotiations even as Ryan, et al were flying their freight in their aircraft!). Or, better yet, Comair. Those poor folks were struggling for basic work rules. Then, Delta's pilots saw the opportunity in their company to negotiate a United plus 1% contract, leaving the Comair folks with no teeth to their threat to have both work groups on strike at the same time.

I don't know too much about Atlas. That is to say, if they have solid work rules. You'll notice my profile shows I came from the jet charter and corporate ranks. There, the work rules changed by the day. I could write a dissertation on horror stories from my five years alone. At jetBlue, we have solid work rules. We have minimum credits per day, strict seniority system, and a block or sked, whichever is higher pay system. Plus many more that others only dream about. If you don't think work rules are important, ask those Comair folks the struck for three months!

Our VP of Ops promised to look at our payscale in two-three years. As far as I am concerned, his word is Gold right now. Ask any one who worked for him at CAL Micronesia (SP?), or People's Express and you'll hear the same thing.

The people I work with are some of the most pessimistic people I know, and with good reason. They come from such industry hallmarks as Fineair, Emery, Atlas, Kalettta, etc. If this mgmt. team can keep them happy, then you can expect things to remain as they are for quite some time.

Needless to say, we'll keep your words in mind. I am aware that they are not without merit. However, until this company shows me that they are any less true to their word than they are now, I am happy with where things are. Like I say, if you keep our age and size in mind, we are getting paid and treated with dignity and respect. Isn't that exactly why other carriers went union, is because they felt neither dignity, nor respect from their mgmt.? Isn't that whole purpose of a union?

Again, hope I didn't offend. Thanks for the lively debate. Take care, and have a great New Year!

 

[SpeedBird]

JayDub:

To add to your point about Management's decision to increase pilot's pay. They not only did it after obtaining feedback from the pilots' survey. They also did it despite the fact that every pilot hired is now under a five-year labor contract which stipulates pay scales for the period.

This in unheard of in my knowledge of the airline business in the last twenty years of labor agreements. That speaks volumes as to how management at jetBlue is bending over backwards to build a foundation of trust between themselves and the pilots. They also understand that if they piss off the pilots, then they will run off and organize.

There is a huge incentive not to commit the same mistakes that other management teams have committed throughout the business for years. Another benefit of being a new carrier is that you don't have to overcome the "baggage" and ill-will that exists at almost all other traditional, unionized carriers.

As long as both groups can keep this trust and communication open, collective bargaining representation is not a priority. If anybody can pull this off over the long-term, it will be jetBlue.

 

[oriondriver]

Wow I wish I could get a job with Jet Blue so we could all just sit around and sing Kumbaya. Back in the late 70's and early 80's a company called Peoples Express was going to revolutionize the industry. I wonder what happened to them?

 

[falcon20]

Another wonderful word of Enthusiasm from Oriondriver, " Im not worthy". God Help Us at SWA.

 

[SpeedBird]

Hey Orion, you should be glad that there is at least one company in this wacky industry of ours, where at least a few of your professional brothers and sisters truly enjoy coming to work; who feel good about their working relationship with management, and who get to pursue their passion of flying. All while earning wages that exceed the average U.S. income by a factor of at least 500%.

No one at jetBlue is trying to puff up their chests, and neither do they possess a "holier than thou" attitude.

At the same time we're not a bunch of boy scouts who are naive about the "realities" of the airline business. If things change for the worst, you can bet your a$$ we'll take care of our own.

 

[Draginass]

JayDub -
Don't misconsrue my comments. Like I said JB seems to be doing everything right, at least right now. Nor would I recommend that you unionize right now either. There's no sense in paying union dues of $150 a month or so if you are happy with you compensation and work rules.

I think you did catch my drift that it's something to keep in the back of your head, especially if management's attitude and actions become different, like they did in Atlas' case. Their pilots spent a few years resisting organizing AFTER things got really bad and lost a couple of years on a contract. Everybody thought they could bring management around . . . but to no avail.

Unionizing now for JB would probably not be in your best interest anyway, this early in the life of the airline.

Recommend you read "Confessions of a Union Buster." A great book that really shows the insides of what really goes on in MANY companies. Hopefully JB will resist that kind of draconian attitude.
BUT, it's in your best interest to at least know the ins and outs of labor - management relations.

Like I said: Have faith that maybe JB will break the historical mould of airline/labor relations. I hope so, but at the same time, don't be naive. If you've got guys from Atlas and Kaletta, they've smelled plenty of rats before and will know 'em when they smell 'em again.

Good luck to all at JB!

 

[JayDub]

Draginass,

I'll certainly pick it up when I have the time. Right now I am reading "Flying the Line II". Man, is that going slow. All that reading makes my lips tired.

Believe me, if the time is ever right, like Speedbird says "we'll take care of our own". But, you really have to look at the history of people to see where they are coming from.

Have you heard of Robert Ferguson? He is the guy with Midway Version 2.0, make that 3.0. He came from Continental, and was basically everything Bethune identified as being "the worst". He has a history of running airlines into the ground.

On the other hand, the manager of the EWR hub, and the Guam operation (I think he managed Guam, atleast) were two of the reasons Bethune was able to turn things around, among many other things of course. Those two people are 2/3 of our upper mgmt. team now.

Also, have you heard any old Morris Air pilots bad mouth Neeleman? I've never heard anything like that. As previouly mentioned, the fact Kellerher mad him sign a non-compete speaks volumes.

I think evventually (hopefully years down the road) we'll get so big, that it will be recognized we need a union. That happens also. Sometimes you need a formal way of resolving issues without involving your company folks every time. I think when that does happen, unless things change drastically, I'd expect to see an in-house union. It would be much less confrontational too.

Besides, most everybody came from smaller carriers represented by ALPA. I've heard many of them talk about how they didn't care for the treatment they got from ALPA National, as a small carrier. Some were highly involved in the union at their old job, and atleast one swore to me he'd never let ALPA get on the property.

I doubt it would be possible for him to do that by himself. He would, I think, have a lot of support though. That is something ALPA has to realize. They are really pi$$ing people off with their treatment of small carriers. We have some folks here from Trans-States. Some of them don't care much at all for ALPA and how they felt they were treated.

Anyhow, thanks so much for your comments. They are welcome. Talk to you soon.


JayDub

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Albie,
Congratualations. You made the right choice. I hope you enjoy a long and prosperous career.

P.S.
We still have to have that beer!

P.P.S.
JayDub, you are both simplistic and inaccurate in your version of the Comair strike and the help they recieved from Delta. That, however, has been done to death on the general board, so I won't get into it!

 

[vschip]

Gents, I have a solution to this arguement, lets all come back when were 60 and compare notes, ok? Maybe it just me and my small brain, but it seems to me we're all pretty much overpaid, so if your happy at your job, good for you. Been at Fedex for 6 months and love it, know guys who have the JB/Fedex choice coming up, and everyone of them has reasons for the decision they made either for JB or Fedex. Like I told my captain last night "I'm just happy to have a job", and I hope to work for the same company til I retire.