Jetblue Pilots' barrel bobbing closer the waterfalls edge...

[Rez O. Lewshun]

As Open Skies negotiations continue to progress, the liberalisation of the global airline industry continues.

Jetblue may or may not be prime for a buyout, but as the article states... what did LH buy jetblue?

Far better, in the IATA view, would be an industry consolidation in which a European airline acquires a United or Continental as a North American subsidiary. (Lufthansa didn’t buy 19% of JetBlue merely as a financial investment.) Indeed, many airline executives believe the U.S. and EU should be considered one market for air travel, just as the EU nations are now.
​

So what happens to the pilot group if jetblue gets bought? Does the PVC have legal standing to represent the pilots.




Why the New EU-U.S. Open Skies Accord Leaves Europeans Grimacing

Posted by: Justin Bachman on March 25, 2010
The United States and European Union on Thursday announced an accord for the second phase of the 2007 Open Skies treaty that opened the EU to U.S. airlines. The deal was greeted with praise from the Air Transport Association, the trade group for U.S. carriers, and disappointment from the International Air Transport Association, the Geneva-based group representing 230 international airlines. “It is disappointing that, at this critical time, we did not make significant progress on the issue of ownership,” Giovanni Bisignani (right), IATA’s CEO and Director General, said in a Mar. 25 statement. “The agreement was not a step backwards, but it did not move us forward.” A day earlier, in a speech in Chile, Bisignani again sounded the horn for more liberalization: “If short-sighted politics does not impede long-term good sense we could see a breakthrough.”
Why this divergence? To be blunt, big European airlines feel they got very little in this agreement. The Open Skies goal for Europe ’s large international airlines – as I noted in February 2009 – has always been the ability to do business in the world’s largest air travel market unfettered by ownership restrictions. The agreement calls for the U.S. to work toward loosening the 25% foreign ownership restrictions on U.S. airlines but no one in the entire debate believes Congress will change that law. It is true that Open Skies, part two, allows for EU carriers to begin new service from the U.S. to non-EU countries but it’s difficult to envision a compelling commercial case for such flights. U.S. airlines can legally do this in the EU now but how many are flying around the Continent with new standalone businesses? Zero. The new ability for Lufthansa or Air France to launch flights from, say, New York to Buenos Aires doesn’t mean a lot financially. Far better, in the IATA view, would be an industry consolidation in which a European airline acquires a United or Continental as a North American subsidiary. (Lufthansa didn’t buy 19% of JetBlue merely as a financial investment.) Indeed, many airline executives believe the U.S. and EU should be considered one market for air travel, just as the EU nations are now.
For all the airlines, the big threat was that the whole Open Skies accord could dissolve, which for U.S. carriers would have meant restricted access to Europe. That did not happen in the new deal, hence the positive comments from the ATA, Continental, and United on Thursday. Moreover, there will be new cooperation on security and environmental issues, two subjects that bedevil airlines on both sides of the Atlantic. But as for the prospect of non-Americans controlling U.S. airlines, well, don’t expect that to happen any time soon.


http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/travelers_check/archives/2010/03/why_the_new_us-.html

 

[Splert]

Does the PVC have legal standing to represent the pilots.

Yes...

It would be considered an ad hoc committee and I would much rather prefer and exclusive committee that has the legal backing to prevent multiple ad hoc groups from forming or being used against us.

Bottom line the PVC is a weak but a legal representative under the RLA.

 

[Jetjockey]

Keep your Euros off my job!

 

[bluesideup340]

As Open Skies negotiations continue to progress, the liberalisation of the global airline industry continues.

Jetblue may or may not be prime for a buyout, but as the article states... what did LH buy jetblue?

So what happens to the pilot group if jetblue gets bought? Does the PVC have legal standing to represent the pilots.

Rez
Your speculation on the future of JetBlue is a waste of time. In previous post you provided ample prove that you have very little understanding or interest facing the actual and real economic realities in the airline industry. I while bac,k you and I discussed the economic realities of foreign ownership here on this board, which was a colossal waste of my time. Because you insisted that changes in foreign ownership rules would mean low-cost eastern European pilots will fly domestically. However, the economic realities do not support such fear. The article in your post, makes the following assertion:
“ It is true that Open Skies, part two, allows for EU carriers to begin new service from the U.S. to non-EU countries but it’s difficult to envision a compelling commercial case for such flights. U.S. airlines can legally do this in the EU now but how many are flying around the Continent with new standalone businesses? Zero. The new ability for Lufthansa or Air France to launch flights from, say, New York to Buenos Aires doesn’t mean a lot financially. Far better, in the IATA view, would be an industry consolidation in which a European airline acquires a United or Continental as a North American subsidiary.”
That being said, I would not mind working for a Lufthansa subsidiary, which would be the same as working for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Siemens, Boehringer, Kuehn & Nagel, Deutsche Bank, Bayer, Wuerth, AEG, etc. in the USA.
Rez, I know from reading your posts you are a true ALPA supporter. But instead of making a big deal of what might or might not happen to JetBlue in the future. Why don’t you take all that time and energy of yours, and fix ALPA; turn the Association into a Union and then we talk again.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes...

It would be considered an ad hoc committee and I would much rather prefer and exclusive committee that has the legal backing to prevent multiple ad hoc groups from forming or being used against us.

Bottom line the PVC is a weak but a legal representative under the RLA.

Where do the funds originate....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Because you insisted that changes in foreign ownership rules would mean low-cost eastern European pilots will fly domestically. However, the economic realities do not support such fear. The article in your post, makes the following assertion:
“ It is true that Open Skies, part two, allows for EU carriers to begin new service from the U.S. to non-EU countries but it’s difficult to envision a compelling commercial case for such flights. U.S. airlines can legally do this in the EU now but how many are flying around the Continent with new standalone businesses? Zero. The new ability for Lufthansa or Air France to launch flights from, say, New York to Buenos Aires doesn’t mean a lot financially. Far better, in the IATA view, would be an industry consolidation in which a European airline acquires a United or Continental as a North American subsidiary.”
That being said, I would not mind working for a Lufthansa subsidiary, which would be the same as working for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Siemens, Boehringer, Kuehn & Nagel, Deutsche Bank, Bayer, Wuerth, AEG, etc. in the USA.

Why do you assume that changes in the US/EU open skies agreement will be favorable to JB pilots? Who is representing the JB pilots at the US/EU open skies negotiations?

In addition, why would working for a LH subsidiary in the US, (under US labor law most likely) provide the social and labor advantages of German law?

Currently in the EU, as economic barriers are lifted, labor is wondering how to apply local labor law exclusive to its own country to countries across the continent.

So why would JB pilots working for a LH subsidiary be an advantage?

Rez, I know from reading your posts you are a true ALPA supporter. But instead of making a big deal of what might or might not happen to JetBlue in the future. Why don’t you take all that time and energy of yours, and fix ALPA; turn the Association into a Union and then we talk again.

Interestingly, I am doing both....

What are the Jetblue pilots going to do about possible changes in US/EU Open skies agreements if/when LH can exercise 5th or 7th freedoms? Suddenly the US transcon flying in jB A320s is done by LH A330s and B747s.

Now, jb pilots simply become a feeder service for LH and Austrian as these two EU companies flying WB jets from JFK and MCO to other large US markets as well as int'l markets such as Sydney, Hong Kong and Johannesburg (or wherever). Throw in the Star Alliance and an A380 is flying huge amounts of jetblue passengers globally. (as you know an EU carrier can fly from any EU city to the US. For example, LH can fly Paris to MCO)

In addition, what is to stop the Star Alliance from feeding its own WB jets in JFK and MCO with UAL, CAL, USAIR, Air Canada passengers? In time what is to stop Shanghai Airlines from getting rights to operate a base out of Mexico City or Toronto and using cabatoge to move what were JB passengers onto Star Alliance WB jets?

Its called scope. The EU desperately wants access to the lucrative US air market. They want cabatoge in the US. They didn't get it this week, but they will be back as a joint committee was set up to revisit the issue.

Even unionized pilots groups like UAL are having a hard time of it and they are plugged into the Int'l Federation of pilot groups as well as Star Alliance pilot groups.... Why are JB pilots different or exempt?

It is simply mind blowing to think what could happen when you have no scope or representation. It's like leaving your front door unlocked and vacancy sign lit up.... anyone can come in and make themselves at home in your house.

In order to be effective, JB pilots needed a representational structure years ago. It's like trying to put on a seat belt after an accident, thinking it will change what has already occurred.

 

[motch]

What are the Jetblue pilots going to do about possible changes in US/EU Open skies agreements if/when LH can exercise 5th or 7th freedoms? Suddenly the US transcon flying in jB A320s is done by LH A330s and B747s.

Now, jb pilots simply become a feeder service for LH and Austrian as these two EU companies flying WB jets from JFK and MCO to other large US markets as well as int'l markets such as Sydney, Hong Kong and Johannesburg (or wherever). Throw in the Star Alliance and an A380 is flying huge amounts of jetblue passengers globally. (as you know an EU carrier can fly from any EU city to the US. For example, LH can fly Paris to MCO)

In addition, what is to stop the Star Alliance from feeding its own WB jets in JFK and MCO with UAL, CAL, USAIR, Air Canada passengers? In time what is to stop Shanghai Airlines from getting rights to operate a base out of Mexico City or Toronto and using cabatoge to move what were JB passengers onto Star Alliance WB jets?

I'll add something.
The though of a Lufty 380 coming into JFK and then going on to LAX is plausible. But let me ask you this-
That same 380 was suppose to turn around and head back to Europe. Now it's not.
So what heads back to Europe?
Is it replaced by another Star Alliance aircraft (CAL/UAL) that goes from NYC to Frankfurt and then, from Frankfurt it goes to somewhere else in Europe and then back to the states?

In the end, aircraft doing multiple stops within a region will require more crews and some sort of basing or at least extended overnights.

Union protection and more importantly, union pilot groups working together will protect us and allow us to maximize our fleets and networks to the best.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'll add something.
The though of a Lufty 380 coming into JFK and then going on to LAX is plausible. But let me ask you this-
That same 380 was suppose to turn around and head back to Europe. Now it's not.
So what heads back to Europe?
Is it replaced by another Star Alliance aircraft (CAL/UAL) that goes from NYC to Frankfurt and then, from Frankfurt it goes to somewhere else in Europe and then back to the states?

In the end, aircraft doing multiple stops within a region will require more crews and some sort of basing or at least extended overnights.

Union protection and more importantly, union pilot groups working together will protect us and allow us to maximize our fleets and networks to the best.

Tens of A380s/B747-8....

One set 'starts' east bound.. the other set 'starts' west bound.... all they do is fly around the globe in opposite directions hitting the large markets, picking up and dropping off pax, all within the Star Alliance, oneworld or SkyTeam.....


JB pilots with no scope and no representation in the Star Allinace Pilot group or oneworld or Skyteam may be treated well....by investors.... or they might be turned into a glorified regional feeding wide bodies.....


I'd rather have representation than not...... but when LH controls 19%, I am sure ze Germans have a say....

 

[bluesideup340]

Why do you assume that changes in the US/EU open skies agreement will be favorable to JB pilots?

Simple because we are cheaper and for this matter US pilots cost in general less than anywhere else in the world.

Who is representing the JB pilots at the US/EU open skies negotiations?

First, open skies negotiations does not mean the sky is not falling as you and ALPA wants us to believe and second, ALPA has done absolutely nothing nor shown leadership to stabilize the US airline industry (i.e. Regional Airline debacle). In fact, ALPA as an organization is so weak and ineffective in the US on its home turf why would I believe they have more to offer in the international arena?

In addition, why would working for a LH subsidiary in the US, (under US labor law most likely) provide the social and labor advantages of German law?

Rez, this make no sense I never claimed German law would be applied in the US nor is this even debated anywhere.

Currently in the EU, as economic barriers are lifted, labor is wondering how to apply local labor law exclusive to its own country to countries across the continent.
So why would JB pilots working for a LH subsidiary be an advantage?

No need to further debate this here the EU court will take up this issue and rule on this in the future for the EU. ALPA or for this matter no other outside the EU organization will or has any influence in this.
I never said JB pilots would have an advantage I simply stated I would not mind. That is all.

Interestingly, I am doing both....

Good for You

What are the Jetblue pilots going to do about possible changes in US/EU Open skies agreements if/when LH can exercise 5th or 7th freedoms? Suddenly the US transcon flying in jB A320s is done by LH A330s and B747s.

JB will not do much nor is there any need to do much, because what you are proposing is simply not a profitable allocation of assets. We had this discussion before but if you like please provide a city pairs and an aircraft rotation schedule to make this service work

Now, jb pilots simply become a feeder service for LH and Austrian as these two EU companies flying WB jets from JFK and MCO to other large US markets as well as int'l markets such as Sydney, Hong Kong and Johannesburg (or wherever). Throw in the Star Alliance and an A380 is flying huge amounts of jetblue passengers globally. (as you know an EU carrier can fly from any EU city to the US. For example, LH can fly Paris to MCO)

This is nothing new it is called a code-share. Do you know how many Delta flight domestically are operated under an international code-share? How about the Delta domestic code share with Midwest Express? While your ALPA brothers at Midwest lost their jobs ALPA biggest carrier is profiting- How about that.

In addition, what is to stop the Star Alliance from feeding its own WB jets in JFK and MCO with UAL, CAL, USAIR, Air Canada passengers? In time what is to stop Shanghai Airlines from getting rights to operate a base out of Mexico City or Toronto and using cabatoge to move what were JB passengers onto Star Alliance WB jets? Its called scope.

This might be news to you, but this is exactly what alliances are actually supposed to do by design. How about this for a Hypothesis- What would stop UAL and CAL to relinquish all domestic routes to JB? Nothing and certainly not ALPA scope. Please, look at the evidence of the last 30 years. ALPA did nothing to stabilize the airline industry. Scope was just ALPA’s backdoor to a C scale and was used as a bargaining chip to benefit the top of the seniority list at the legacy carriers.
At the end of the day, it is called Free Market Economy even for ALPA.

The EU desperately wants access to the lucrative US air market. They want cabatoge in the US. They didn't get it this week, but they will be back as a joint committee was set up to revisit the issue.

Lucrative US air market – are you serious. The US market that the lowest yield margins in the world. US airlines have the weakest financial balance sheet amongst their peers overseas.

Even unionized pilots groups like UAL are having a hard time of it and they are plugged into the Int'l Federation of pilot groups as well as Star Alliance pilot groups.... Why are JB pilots different or exempt?

Well if you want to be scared be scared. By you own admission there is very little the International Federation of Pilots or ALPA can do. In the case of ALPA it should not come as a surprise. ALPA has not credibility domestically why do you believe it would be different internationally.

It is simply mind blowing to think what could happen when you have no scope or representation. It's like leaving your front door unlocked and vacancy sign lit up.... anyone can come in and make themselves at home in your house.

In order to be effective, JB pilots needed a representational structure years ago. It's like trying to put on a seat belt after an accident, thinking it will change what has already occurred.

Rez since you do not work for JB no need for you to blow your mind. Although, I appreciate your analogies but really where was ALPA’s seat belt for the TWA pilots? How about the vacant house in US Airways and America West merger?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Simple because we are cheaper and for this matter US pilots cost in general less than anywhere else in the world.

Is this something to be proud of?

Actually, as I stated, in the future, why would cheaper pilots not do you flying? You've no scope protections. I would think that the massive outsourcing of labor in the US would be telling. Do you actually think that investors view pilots differently than from, say Levi jeans labor in the the US?

First, open skies negotiations does not mean the sky is not falling as you and ALPA wants us to believe and second, ALPA has done absolutely nothing nor shown leadership to stabilize the US airline industry (i.e. Regional Airline debacle). In fact, ALPA as an organization is so weak and ineffective in the US on its home turf why would I believe they have more to offer in the international arena?

What does open skies mean? More opportunity for pilots who....

are cheaper and for this matter US pilots cost in general less than anywhere else in the world

It has nothing to do with stabilizing the US airline industry... that is the job of govt and CEO's who choose to look beyond profits (Herb K?)

I never really advocated ALPA... just representation... do you want to make this an ALPA debate or a representation/scope debate?

Rez, this make no sense I never claimed German law would be applied in the US nor is this even debated anywhere.

you stated:

That being said, I would not mind working for a Lufthansa subsidiary, which would be the same as working for VW, BMW, Mercedes, Siemens, Boehringer, Kuehn & Nagel, Deutsche Bank, Bayer, Wuerth, AEG, etc. in the USA.

Where to gain something by working for a LH subsidiary... explain...
​

No need to further debate this here the EU court will take up this issue and rule on this in the future for the EU. ALPA or for this matter no other outside the EU organization will or has any influence in this.
I never said JB pilots would have an advantage I simply stated I would not mind. That is all.

The EU was an example... because of the large number of states within a small area.... however it is the global model.....

Why would you not mind no labor protections and management the ability to move about freely within the gloabl market?

Good for You

It is not about me...rather all of us....

JB will not do much nor is there any need to do much, because what you are proposing is simply not a profitable allocation of assets. We had this discussion before but if you like please provide a city pairs and an aircraft rotation schedule to make this service work

JB simply provides the feed to JFK... LH takes those pax and flies them from JFK to LAX, SFO, SYD, Hong Kong, etc....

This is nothing new it is called a code-share. Do you know how many Delta flight domestically are operated under an international code-share? How about the Delta domestic code share with Midwest Express? While your ALPA brothers at Midwest lost their jobs ALPA biggest carrier is profiting- How about that.

Not good. And this was done with negotiations becuase the Delta pilots had scope to bargian with.....

What do the JB pilots have to bargain with.....??

This might be news to you, but this is exactly what alliances are actually supposed to do by design.

This might be news to yo but the JB pilots are a part of no alliance and no represnetation.

How about this for a Hypothesis- What would stop UAL and CAL to relinquish all domestic routes to JB? Nothing and certainly not ALPA scope.

Explain. They might be able to give regional jets to JB to fly taken from RAH or Expressjet.... but I am not sure JB is in that biz...

Are you suggesting that the JB pilot group is willing to become the new face of the regional airline pilot?

Please, look at the evidence of the last 30 years. ALPA did nothing to stabilize the airline industry.

Not ALPA's job.

Scope was just ALPA’s backdoor to a C scale and was used as a bargaining chip to benefit the top of the seniority list at the legacy carriers.

Agreed... however you use a word for ALPA that you can't for JB pilots: bargaining.

At the end of the day, it is called Free Market Economy even for ALPA.

Agreed.

Lucrative US air market – are you serious. The US market that the lowest yield margins in the world. US airlines have the weakest financial balance sheet amongst their peers overseas.

Then why does the EU want access?

Well if you want to be scared be scared. By you own admission there is very little the International Federation of Pilots or ALPA can do. In the case of ALPA it should not come as a surprise. ALPA has not credibility domestically why do you believe it would be different internationally.

We aren't talking about ALPA as much as you want this debate to be.... you seem content to be at your investors benevolence.

Rez since you do not work for JB no need for you to blow your mind. Although, I appreciate your analogies but really where was ALPA’s seat belt for the TWA pilots? How about the vacant house in US Airways and America West merger?

You might come out clean in the end.... are you willing to risk a decade of seniorty over no representation?