IAP from a Hold

Buschpilot

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Ref. the following VOR approach:

http://edj.net/cgi-bin/echoplate.pl?NorthWest/HIO_vd_gA.GIF

The hold is at an intermediate fix (the VOR), and not directly aligned with the approach course.

Question:

If an aircraft is in the hold at the minimum altitude, and subsequently cleared for the approach, does the aircraft have to perform the procedure turn, or may it cross the VOR and proceed straight in?

Please reference any FAR's or AIM paragraph's.

Thanks in advance.

B
 

flydog

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I cant provide a reference but the VOR is the IAF so you would intercept the course inbound at the fix. No need for a procedure turn since a procedure turn is used for course reversal. It would also depend on the exact wording of the clearance.
 

avbug

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Busch,

In this case, the depicted hold is part of the missed approach proceedure. A pilot flying the hold has not begun the proceedure, and while crossing the VOR in the hold, is not considered established. Unless given vectors to final, the pilot arriving at newberg in the hold must still execute the proceedure turn.

AIM 5-4-8(a) specifically states that "The proceedure turn or hold in lieu of a proceedure turn is a required maneuver." As the depicted hold is shown with light dotted lines and is taken to be part of the missed approach proceedure, it is not acceptable for course reversal. Therefore, after entering the hold at Newberg, one is still required to track outbound on the 166 radial to perform the proceedure turn.
 

AWACoff

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Obviously a course reversal is required. However, in real life I believe most pilots would simply fly a racetrack pattern (AIM 5-4-8 a. 1. However the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of the turn is left to the discrection of the pilot. Some of the options are ...the racetrack pattern,... Some procedure turns are specified by the procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted). Admittedly that isn't the same as the published hold but it certainly is the easiest. Correct me if I am wrong (since I frequently am).:D
 

H2OK9

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correct my if I'm wrong, but...You're already in the hold which is left turns so when you turn inbound for the vor, that is your IAF, no need for course reversal unless you were doing right hand turns. maintian 3000 until passing vor (FAF).
 

flydog

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Avbug,

I dont understand why a procedure turn still needs to be flown if a course reversal is not required

5-4-8 (a) 4 states: "A procedure turn need not be established when an approach can be made from a properly aligned holding pattern"

In the case cited the inbound course for the hold is reasonably aligned with the approach course and can be intercepted without a procedure turn
 

A Squared

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Flydog and H2ok9,

You wrote:

>>>>VOR is the IAF

and,

>>>>>>when you turn inbound for the vor,that is your IAF,

My response is yeah? What difference does that make that the VOR is the IAF? Except in the case of a procedure specifically designated Nopt, a procedure turn is required after the IAF. After being cleared for the approach, you pass the IAF and then you do a procedure turn.

As far as the quote from the AIM:

First, the standard response....The AIM is not regulatory, If the AIM cannot impose legal restrictions above the regulations, nor can it relieve a pilot from requirements of the regulations.

Going a little deeper. That is an unfortunate phrasing and has led to confusion before. That sentance is lifted verbatim from the TERPS, Chapter 2, para 234 (e). It's intent is not to instruct pilots how to fly, but to instruct the designers of approaches how to design approaches. That's what the TERPS are for. It is regrettable that it has been cut and pasted into the AIM. If you take a look at a current AIM, you will see that the confusing language has been removed (Hey, the FAA does fix things). That same 5-4-8(a)(4) now reads. " A holding pattern in lieu of a procedure turn may be specified for course reversal in some procedures."

"May be specified" means that it may be specified by the approach designers. If it has been specified, the holding pattern will be depicted in a heavy black line. Additionally there will be no procedure turn "barb" because the holding pattern has been specified "in lieu of" or in place of a procedure turn.

Bottom line, there's no heavy black line hold depicted, nor is there a Nopt route depicted. therefore you gotta do the procedure turn.


regards
 
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A Squared

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>>>>>Actually as depicted, there is no "required" method of flying the procedure turn.

Agreed, once cleared for the approach, the method of course reversal is at the pilot's discretion. however that doesn't change the fact that you need to fly a course reversal after the IAF. If you get approach clearence just before you hit the VOR inbound, could you you could take another turn in the hold, modifying the inbound leg to line up with the inbound course? I think that you could. Given the same situation, could you just proceed on the intermediate segment, without any kind of course reversal? I'm pretty sure the answer is no, not legally.

regards.
 

avbug

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Waterdog and Flydog,

A Squared is correct. The bottom line is that the hold isn't depicted with a heavy line; it's part of the missed approach proceedure and may not be used to commence the proceedure. The designers intended that a proceedure turn be used, and a proceedure turn is required. Simply because one thinks it looks about right, doesn't make it acceptable. Yes, you pass over the VOR roughly lined up, but that does NOT make you established.

Clearly the designers of this approach mean for you to be established on course before crossing the VOR. You commence the approach at the IAF, which is the VOR, but you must proceed outbound, turn around, and then proceed inbound. The depicted hold is not shown as a way for beginning the approach; if you happen to be holding there, it's by coincidence, and it's not part of the proceedure for the purpose of commencing the approach. It just happens to be colocated with the IAF...strictly coincidence.

Weather one flies right or left turns in the hold, has nothing to do with anything. I don't see the logic of that question.

Flydog, AIM 5-4-8(a)(4) doesn't state, "A procedure turn need not be established when an approach can be made from a properly aligned holding pattern." Instead, it states that a holding pattern in lieu of a proceedure turn may be specified for course reversal in some proceedures. As A Square noted, the key element in this statement is "specified." An arbitrary holding pattern doesn't cut it; it must be specifically designed into the approach as such, and is part of the proceedure. The reference you provided states nothing about not needing to perform a proceedure turn, and wouldn't apply in this case, anyway.

I suggest a close reading of the first Refresher article referenced by TDTurbo. Wally Roberts covers the topic well, with several good references and examples.

AIM 5-4-8(b)(3) specifically addresses the hold in lieu of a proceedure turn, and references a depicted hold for the express purpose of course reversal, as part of the approach proceedure. It does not refer to missed approach holding patterns, or other patterns that may be arbitrarily colocated with the IAF, FAF, or other such fixes.
 

Checks

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I know of two different guys who flunked Part 135 checkrides with the FAA because they didnt do a PT and instead flew a straight in approach without getting vectors to final from approach. Unless you get vectors to final or there is a NoPT on your approach plate then you must do the PT.

AvBug is right on as usual.
 

H2OK9

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Ok fellow flyers, here's the deal.
If you haven't shot the app. and are cleared for the app. you stay at last assigned alt or the alt depicted on the plate when able, if you're coming in from the north you need to do a course reversal thus the PT which can be preformed any way you like so long as your alt is correct and you turn on the side of the barb. If you're coming in from the south there is no need for a turn since a PT is only to reverse course to get you lined up. If you shoot the app and go missed, you would enter the hold most likely from a teardrop or some would choose to do a parallel, either way that puts you inbound on the 003 with left hand turns, if center clears you for the app, you do NOT need to do a course reversal since your inbound leg on the hold is already lined up. Also the Vor is depicted as IAF.
Happy flying!
 

AWACoff

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Okay,
I didn't make my post very clear. I agree you need to do a course reversal. What I suggested is that you perform a "racetrack pattern" after you cross over the IAF. That isn't the same as the holding pattern depicted for the missed approach. The racetrack pattern performed to the protected side would seem to suffice for a course reversal as well as have you established inbound prior to crossing the VOR...no??? If I am incorrect, could somebody explain it to me like they would to a 6 year old?:eek:
 

A Squared

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AWACoff,

I believe that you are correct, that if cleared for the approach, you could cross the VOR and fly a racetrack and join the inbound 346 radial. I think that this would be pushing the boundaries of a course reversal. I certainly wouldn’t try in on a checkride. If you had an examiner who had a more narrow world view, it might net you a pink slip. You might eventually prove that it was legal, but it would be a real hassle. Certainly if you’re being watched, it’s better to turn to intercept and track outbound on the 166 radial and do a standard procedure turn.



H2OK9 ,


>>>>>If you're coming in from the south there is no need for a turn.......

It appears that you are saying that if you are inbound from the south, whether enroute or in a hold that you may skip the procedure turn. If that is what you are saying you are absolutely wrong. If the designers of the approach don’t want you to fly a procedure turn there will be a NoPT procedure on the plate. If there’s no designated NoPT procedure, you must fly the procedure turn. (unless of course you are being vectored to final) If you don’t agree, I would encourage you to take a look at this legal interpretation from the FAA’s Office of Chief Counsel http://www.terps.com/iafltr/graphics/index.html
which specifically addresses this situation. It states "However, if a SIAP does contain a procedure turn and ATC has cleared a pilot to execute the SIAP, the pilot must make the procedure turn when one of the conditions of Section 91.175(J) is not present." The "conditions of Section 91.175 (j) " are: vectors to final, Timed approaches from a hold, and a No Procedure turn procedure. It doesn’t get any more black and white than this.

Regards
 

Buschpilot

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Thanks!

Ladies and Gents,

Thank you for your input(s)!!! I truly appreciate it.

I'm studying the 135 check airmen stuff, and there are some interesting things that come up. I may throw some more your direction....

Thanks again!

B
 

puddlejumper

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"Straight-In Approach?"

H2OK9 said:
if you're coming in from the north you need to do a course reversal thus the PT which can be preformed any way you like so long as your alt is correct and you turn on the side of the barb. If you're coming in from the south there is no need for a turn since a PT is only to reverse course to get you lined up.
Forgive me for I don't have my AIM on the road with me today, but I seem to remember something about a "straight-in" approach clearance. Along with a NoPT, radar vectors, cleared "straight-in" would get you out of having to do a PT if your position and altitude allowed for it.

I routinely ask (and maybe I'm being a dork) for a straight-in whenever my route of flight, the IAF and the final are all pretty well lined up. Does that sound familiar to y'all?

-PJ
 

A Squared

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I should clarify that the procedure turn is an absolute requirement for a non-radar environment. If you are receiving radar vectors it's a different story.
 

H2OK9

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sorry A Squared, You, my friend, are wrong.
You do not need to do a procedure turn if you are coming in from the south! the turn is only in the need of a course reversal such as coming to Hillsboro Airport from the north. IF you disagree, you need to get up to Oregon el' pronto cause them boys up there have been doing it that way for years! check your far 91.175 there is nothing that says you have to do a procedure turn. Once again a procedure turn is only designed in the need of a course reversal! If you are coming in from the south into Hillsboro airport, you do not need a course reversal. you fly to the vor and begin your decent
 

H2OK9

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Buschpilot you sure stirred up the hornets nest here!
Ok A Squared, I used a life line and did the phone a friend. called tracon in portland, they know this app, inside and out. and I called hillsboro twr as well, same answer from both experts.

NO prodedure turn is required if you are flying in from the south, they will give you, "cross vor at or above 3000'" you proceed on course of 346 and may begin to decend after the vor and continue with no procedure turn. YOU can however, hit the vor, racetrack back around to the left (where the hold is depicted) and fly outbound on the R-166 to do a procedure turn if you want the practice and if there is no transition that says "Straigh In" or the controller doesn't specify. This is direct from the horses mouth folks.
fly safe!
 

flydog

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I agree with H2OK9 on this one

I still dont understand where the AIM requires that one execute a procedure turn for course reversal when its not required when flying in from the South

If I am to understand Avbug's interpretation once crossing the IAF after being cleared out of the hold and for the approach I need to make a course reversal ??? of my own choosing since no PT is illustrated when flying northbound, intercept the radial outbound, do another procedure turn to intercept the course inbound and complete the approach.

The published hold is the ONLY protected airspace at the IAF. No other procedure is authorized for course reversal other than the hold regardless of wether it is used for a missed approach or not. Any other type of turn is not shown therefore not authorized.

I asked several pilots including check airmen and experienced Captains and nobody would elect to fly back outbound just to execute a procedure turn.
 
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