hypothetical question

[harrier]

Let's pretend that we know someone who works for a part 135. Now let's pretend that a client wants to go somewhere and back that would be close if not over duty time limits. Use your imagination now and imagine a member of management from that company approaches the crew and tells them to not go on duty until 5 minutes prior to takeoff even though the crew is imaginarily there over an hour before the client shows up to both prep the plane and because the client ends up late.

In this fantasy world, what would you do?

Note: our fictional pilots told the person choice words and documented their time as regulations state. So Next Question: Should they leave it at that?

 

[tarp]

This fantasy world has lots of jobs and pilots are scarce as hen's teeth?

In the real world, you may not have a job tomorrow if you bite the hand that feeds you.

I've found that out the hard way - and duty time was the least of my worries. Yet I finally found that trip that was so darn illegal I just couldn't take it. Now, I've been looking for a job for 6 months because nobody believes me but they sure do listen to my ex-employer and since both parties agree that I refused a trip - I'm the one on on the outside trying to find work.

So, if you feel you want to get on a soapbox and "report" your employer to FSDO for trying to work you beyond or into your 10 hour rest period, you might want to reconsider. FSDO doesn't care. Your employer will.

As someone told me for the future - "Shut up and fly the trip".

 

[FlyFlyFly]

I would say it has alot to do with your employer. Fly the trip and have anything go wrong, and it is your tail. Refuse it, and if you work for a bottom feeder, you will get fired.

As an old aviator said to me once regarding employers:

"Sleep with cheap whores, and sooner or later you're gonna' get somethin' nasty..."

I have worked for cheap whores. Not all 135 outfits are run by them. Look for a new job that isn't run by cheap whores.

 

[harrier]

It is for a friend, for real I know that sounds like the "oh it's my brother.... " stuff but it isn't me. Sadly (or maybe not considering this conversation) I'm still just a CFI. It is a tough thing, as tarp said, you could find yourself feeling blacklisted but then again, something goes wrong on the trip, even minor and you may find yourself without a license.

As an optimist, I say if we all stand up for what we believe, companies that don't respect the regs would be unable to find pilots. As a realist, I know that isn't reality.

They flew the trip, but logged the time right. Told the client he had to be ready to leave by x oclock. The client made it, yay fairy tale happy endings. I told the person what you essentially said, flyflyfly, do what you can to do what is right and safe, and get your resume out there before the hand that feeds you gets too irresistable to bite.

tarp, I hope eventually karma comes around and you get that pimp dream job you think about in your wildest fantasies. Standing up for what is safe and legal can be rough sorry to hear about your situation. Best of luck!

 

[Nolife]

As someone told me for the future - "Shut up and fly the trip".

Terrible advice. If you are a professional you follow the regs. They were written in blood over manys years. If the trip is illegal don't do it and state the reason. If they still insist let them know that there is a good chance you'll have to stop on the road for 10 hrs rest.

If they fire you that's life. Document it as best as you can so you have proof. It's becoming a pilot's market so you shouldn't have trouble finding a reputable operator. PM if you want some names.

You as PIC are the last line of defense in the battle of reducing the risks of flying and affecting a positive outcome.

An operator like this will have an accident because they will push things to the breaking point and luck will eventually run out... NTSB database is full of examples.

 

[pilotpat]

Amen Nolife. We had a charter where the guy was told "Its a Falcon 20 and doesn't have a ton of room for bags". He shows up with 2 vans ~ 1 with pax, 1 with bags. I stood on the steps and said, we're gonna have a problem here. The other pilot and myself puzzle pieced the stuff together, but that was out of cold weather for sunny Florida. We advised him when we landed it wasn't gonna work for the ride home. I told scheduling and they called the broker who called the guy. Guess what. 9 days later when we go to pick him up ~ MORE bags than the flight down. The other guy was PIC that day (hahaha...and his last day since he was recalled to his previous 121) so he takes a monster, "Ain't happening" stance. The guy goes in a tirade about how he's got a building full of lawyers (none of whom are pilots, BTW) and he's gonna sue everyone. I step in and simply say, "We'll load what we legally can, but we'll have to ship the rest". The other guy calls our company owner and tells him. Said company owner says, "If he's not going to follow your orders, then leave him"!

WHAT???? We're told exactly what we should have been. Talk about feeling good. We actually had an FA who flies on our Gulfstreams and even she said it was a large airplane load. End story: We got paid by the broker and the broker has to sue this idiot.

Stick to your guns and remember ~ No one ever needs to land in Aspen!! LOL

 

[ultrarunner]

Let's pretend that we know someone who works for a part 135. Now let's pretend that a client wants to go somewhere and back that would be close if not over duty time limits. Use your imagination now and imagine a member of management from that company approaches the crew and tells them to not go on duty until 5 minutes prior to takeoff even though the crew is imaginarily there over an hour before the client shows up to both prep the plane and because the client ends up late.

In this fantasy world, what would you do?

This would come up from time to time when I flew charter. Out Ops manual would allow a duty show of 30 mins and a duty of of 15 minutes. This usually covered the few times this would happen.

As far as what you're talking about??? That's BS.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Generally, if you "bend" a regulation, for whatever reason, and either the customer or management knows about it, they will expect you to "bend" any and all regulations in the future, purely for convenience.

IOW, it ain't worth it.

Fly safe!

David

 

[landlover]

hypothetically they(the company) could just "schedule" the passengers to arrive earlier, when they show up the passengers are "late". this make you legal since your duty day can go on for ever for weather, freight and passenger delays, etc. now that being said you should never let some fudge with your duty. play with duty is a messing situation.

 

[heywatchthis]

Generally, if you "bend" a regulation, for whatever reason, and either the customer or management knows about it, they will expect you to "bend" any and all regulations in the future, purely for convenience.

NO BETTER SAID. Draw the line and be a professional at all cost.

NO better said. The industry is in the right direction again and you are seeing the same "whore" operators posting for jobs month after month. You don't need to be unsafe nor illegal to keep your career in aviation. Notice I didn't say JOB.

Say NO to a training contract that doesn't include an employment contract. If you can't quite, then they can't lay you off either.

Say NO to taking off over weight, or not being able to make 2nd segment climb. (Unless a visual maneuver can be safely accomplished).

Say NO to never having a day off till you get properly staffed. What flying job has ever been properly staffed. No days off, then NO call out time.

Say NO to flying for FREE or some pitiful wage, daily rate, plus blah blah.

Say NO to having to land with less than :45 mins of fuel on board.

Say NO to flying broke airplanes. A "company man" gets the aircraft home for maintenance- If it won't affect safety of flight. An "unprofessional pilot" flies a broke airplane away from maintenance base.

The same employer that fires you will fire the next guy and the next guy too.

So take unemployment and be a contract pilot, because once you say "OK" you will always have to cross that line.