Have you checked performance #s?

[HvyjetFO]

Hey all,

With all the flight tracking software out there, it's easy to see who's going where, and something that I'm curious about is how many pilots are out there going where the boss tells them to with disregard as to what the plane can actually do while maintaining high margins of safety.

For example, I fly the C650, which is a good airplane, but it definitely is a pig as far as short field performance goes. I know that anything less than 6000 feet of runway in summer heat and you better double check your numbers. Yet, I see 650s coming out of 5300 foot strips and doing 3 hour over water flights to TEB, so you know they gotta take extra gas going to a NYC area airport. Assuming they only took 4 hours of gas for the 3 hour flight they would need 4800 feet of the 5300 ft runway, assuming they had no pax or bags (unlikely). Add 4 pax and bags and your at 5150 feet. IMHO there is no margin for error here. Lose one right before V1 and you are going off the runway.

Also, I saw a 650 do a 1800 mile trip with a 100 knot headwind. Planned flight time was 4+30. I know there is no way to do this flight without landing on complete FUMES.

And when was the last time you took a look at 2nd segment?

Friendly reminder folks...get in the manuals. We keep them on board for a reason. I don't mean to come across as preaching, but it appears some people just succomb to the "it'll make it" philosophy too often.

Hvy

 

[snow-back]

Hey all,

With all the flight tracking software out there, it's easy to see who's going where, and something that I'm curious about is how many pilots are out there going where the boss tells them to with disregard as to what the plane can actually do while maintaining high margins of safety.

For example, I fly the C650, which is a good airplane, but it definitely is a pig as far as short field performance goes. I know that anything less than 6000 feet of runway in summer heat and you better double check your numbers. Yet, I see 650s coming out of 5300 foot strips and doing 3 hour over water flights to TEB, so you know they gotta take extra gas going to a NYC area airport. Assuming they only took 4 hours of gas for the 3 hour flight they would need 4800 feet of the 5300 ft runway, assuming they had no pax or bags (unlikely). Add 4 pax and bags and your at 5150 feet. IMHO there is no margin for error here. Lose one right before V1 and you are going off the runway.

Also, I saw a 650 do a 1800 mile trip with a 100 knot headwind. Planned flight time was 4+30. I know there is no way to do this flight without landing on complete FUMES.

And when was the last time you took a look at 2nd segment?

Friendly reminder folks...get in the manuals. We keep them on board for a reason. I don't mean to come across as preaching, but it appears some people just succomb to the "it'll make it" philosophy too often.

Hvy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 5150' is less than 5300', which falls within the performance parameters and therefore should not run off the runway. I guess it has to do with your comfort level, but the "numbers" are what we have to calculate our performance. Where do you draw the line if 5150 isn't enough? Do you pick an indiscriminate point or a certain percentage below max performance? Are you intimately familiar with your aircraft's capabilities? Personally, I like as big a safety margin as possible, but if the numbers get tight, I am proficient and confident enough to take them up to the limit...notwithstanding extraordinary factors.

BTW, our flight department adheres strictly to the performance limitations of our aircraft and will adjust any flight accordingly without fear of reprisal.

 

[HvyjetFO]

You are absolutely correct in that the book numbers are the limit. Yes, I am confident in my abilities as well to handle such situations as well. However, my point is that I don't believe people are aware of and/or ignoring a lot of these "gotchas" out there. I did neglect to mention that the numbers in my earlier post was for "bleeds off". With bleeds on it increases the distance by 2%, so thats where 5300 ft came into play. It would be right at the limit if one didnt check the numbers and forgot to turn the bleeds off.

All said it sounds like we're on the same page.

Regards,
Hvy

 

[Hawker800]

operate a Hawker 800 in FL. Deal with this issue all the time during summer months. Have had no problem with the boss.

 

[HvyjetFO]

Absolutely! These issues have never created a problem with the boss either. As a matter of fact, when they realize exactly how deep you get into it to guarantee their safety, it's added job security.

 

[Raskal]

Tell you what, my comanpy operates hawkers to the limit constantly...I don't like it either. It's legal, but all the same. Example, east hampton I know is full of corporate aircraft in the summer pushing it with weight, especially luggage. We call the perf charts "voodoo numbers", lets face it folks, I doubt any of us are as quick as the test pilots on that day of testing in a brand new aircraft with no squawks and perfect brakes. Frankly, a lot of what goes on with these arcraft and private operators is a joke...anything so as to not inconvenience the pax, right?

 

[peter185]

Aren't the refusal #'s calculated so that you could have an emergency requiring an abort at V1. Then the numbers are calculated for you having three seconds to make your decision to abort before taking any steps towards actually aborting. Three seconds is a lifetime in my opinion. Maybe this is not how it is for corporate aircraft, but in the T-1 (beechjet) this is how the accelerate stop distance was calculated.

 

[Lead Sled]

We call the perf charts "voodoo numbers", lets face it folks, I doubt any of us are as quick as the test pilots on that day of testing in a brand new aircraft with no squawks and perfect brakes.

That's not how those numbers are generated. All of the performance numbers in the AFM should easily achievable by the "average" guy in the "average" airplane. However, you have to understand that if you want to achieve book performance you have to fly by the book - using book techniques and procedures. Unfortunately, this is a foreign concept to many pilots. Things like rotation rates have a significant effect on takeoff performance. Your manual probably tells you how fast you need to raise the nose and to what angle. Do you know what it is and more importantly, do you do it each and every takeoff? Or do you simply punch "go-around" and rotate into the V-Bars?

Do you use the climb profile and power settings shown in the performance charts? Or do you use some personal speeds that "seem to do better". When it comes the TFE731 engines (non-fadec) that many of us operate, do you set climb and cruise power according to the N1 charts in the flight manual or do you use some arbitrary temperature settings?

Do you do your flight planning based on actual flight manual numbers or do you figure on so many pounds for the 1st hour, so many the second hour, and so on? (That's a good way to double check your numbers, but definately not the best way to calculate the fuel and flight time if you're planning on flying out near your range limits.)

You know what your airplane weighs, are you honest about what everything else you have onboard weighs? In some airplanes weight and balance can be a significant issue, in others, it isn't. If you consistantly run around out of CG or a little overweight you're exposing yourself to a lot of personal liability that you probably aren't ready to deal with.

There is absolutely no problem with flying out near the edges of the performance envelope - as long as you remain in the envelope. The problem is that many pilots don't really know where the edges actually are, so that have no idea when they've gone beyond them.

Frankly, a lot of what goes on with these arcraft and private operators is a joke...anything so as to not inconvenience the pax, right?

Most of the operators that I know operate thier aircraft in a very consciencious and professional manner. Unfortunately, there are some bozos out there too. Sloppy techniques and procedures don't necessariliary manifest themselves until you take the airplane out near the edges of the performance envelope.

LS

 

[Raskal]

Thanks LS, that was a well-written and thoughtful post, unlike my own sarcastic one. I will try and respond with less of the just-got-back-from-a-sh!tty-trip perspective.

I know what you're saying, and yes, I'm familiar with everything you're talking about. In some cases my company feels it knows better than the book, but we operate all our aircraft by the manual when the brass isn't on board.

Weight is my concern. Our company claims to support us, but we are often in arguments with pax over luggage size, weight, placement etc...while the company just plays neutral-missing opportunities to educate the pax choosing rather to make the pilots look conservative and unreasonable. Yes, we eventually win the arguments with the pax, but how long was it or how long will it be before somebody just gives a little to end everything and go home? I've seen it, but refuse to be a part of it.

We get this extremely detailed, down to the foot and pound performance chart out and very carefully try to folow these crazy-small grid lines to eek that little extra bit of distance out of the plane...yet, how many times has anyone really seen pilots weighing the luggage or the pax? But somehow we can use every feet of the "value of d" (for the hawker guys). When one really considers it, it gets silly. Somebody aborts at east hampton (4255ft) in a hawker, they're goin off the end, then how are those little perfomance charts gonna hold up? Will they save any problems with the feds? I'm just saying it's worth a thought.

 

[shiznitobam]

...We get this extremely detailed, down to the foot and pound performance chart out and very carefully try to folow these crazy-small grid lines to eek that little extra bit of distance out of the plane...yet, how many times has anyone really seen pilots weighing the luggage or the pax? But somehow we can use every feet of the "value of d" (for the hawker guys). When one really considers it, it gets silly. Somebody aborts at east hampton (4255ft) in a hawker, they're goin off the end, then how are those little perfomance charts gonna hold up? Will they save any problems with the feds? I'm just saying it's worth a thought.

I love it. We measure with a laser and cut with an axe. It doesn't take much to throw the performance numbers right out the window.