Gulfstream Academy

Status
Not open for further replies.

mkingmei

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Posts
99
Total Time
Time?
I am looking for any information(positive or negative... please back it up)on Gulfstream Academy in Fort Lauderdale. It sounds like a pretty good deal for a low timer.
 

20sx

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2002
Posts
149
Total Time
4000
You're gonna get flamed with this subject.
 

mkingmei

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Posts
99
Total Time
Time?
20sx, i understand that it might be a touchy subject but lets only offer information, not whether or not i am going to catch
a bunch of S#@T. thank you for your concern though.
 

flydog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
542
Total Time
2500+
Gulfstream is a good idea if you want to accomplish the following:

1. Accelerate your career by skipping years of learning from experience which is essential to becoming a good Captain. You will not have an opportunity to learn from your mistakes and accumulate knowledge from having been there and done that.

2. Put passengers at risk by putting a low time (250 hr) pilot in the right seat that may someday be called upon to deal with a serious emergency when the Captain is unable to. In our company we had a Captain die of a heart attack in a Challenger in flight. It is possible and it has happened.

3. Lower the average pay scales that an experienced and qualified pilot commands by giving away your services for free (whore?). If Gulfstream couldnt find people to pay for a job they would be forced to hire experience pilots at an industry average wage

4. Put an ugly black mark on your resume that everyone who reviews it will know you paid for your job instead of working your way up

My advice is use your money to build ratings, get your CFI and either instruct, tow banners or crop dust so you can learn to be an aviator not just an airline whore.
 

Humblepilot

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
200
Total Time
8300
In Addition

I believe they are still running the new hire program while there are pilots out on furlough. I guess it depends on your morals.

It took me ten years (CFI, Corporate, Regional Flying) to make it to the right seat at a major airline and every year of struggle was worth it, even with the furlough.

Be very careful with your choices.

Humble
 

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
no answer

This is an area that gets beat to death on this board. Without knowing more about your situation, there is no answer at all.

Gulfstream is a reputable company, has several programs that are what they are, may or may not be right for you. I have no reason to think that there training is not satisfactory.

I talk to their students all the time and no one has complained to me that they did not get what they paid for.

The fact is that there are and will be more and more of these programs. People putting out the money for good training today want to know they will have a place to go or at least a guaranteed interview.

The other fact is that companies want multi engine turbine time. It is hard to get. That is an advantage of these programs. Would it be better if you started flying at 14 with grandpa in his Tripacer. got your licence, were a CFI and teaching, etc. Who knows.

Everyone is an individual. Some get it in 500 hours, some not in a lifetime.
 

flydog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
542
Total Time
2500+
Publisher endorses companies like AEPS, Climbto350, UPAS, Gulfstream. etc who make a profit from exploiting pilots and those who dream of an airline career. Dont fall for it. Youll be doing yourself and a lot of hard working pilots a disservice by paying for a career you should earn on your own and lining the pockets of greedy scum at the same time
 

mkingmei

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Posts
99
Total Time
Time?
So basically what you are saying is that anyone who has ever paid for their training is ruining the entire airline industry and dragging down the pay scales? I know several people that have gone that route (PFT) and now have very successful major airline careers.
It is not the employee (read PFT employee) that has created a pay scale of what could be poverty level in some cases; it is management (as well as supply and demand). And if you want to talk about pay dues and gaining experience, that is one form of it. Low pay, little or no benefits, long hours and perhaps no union representation is part of paying on the way to the majors.

PFT doesn't make one a bad person, or a whore, as you so beautifully put it. It is simply a choice one has to make; whether or not they will do it. So in all reality one can either pay now or later...it is coming out of your packet somewhere.

I am not here to start a pissing contest about what is right and wrong, I am simply asking for fact based information about this company so I
can make an educated decision about my future.

Thank you to everyone so far that has been kind enough to offer up their information.
 

Wiggums

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,040
Total Time
.
Management can create low pay scales, however, it's the pilots that choose to work in such absurd conditions. You're going to make a conscious choice to pay for a seat that would normally go to a pilot that would be paid a fair wage. That is how your dragging down pay scales, if people wouldn't work for free then the average pay would have to increase. You'll have to decide if it's best for you to step on everyone else on your way to the top, while hurting the common good.

Moreover, don't believe that you'll be “paying your dues” going to Gulfstream. There will always be fellow pilots that look down on people that PFT, even if they happen to work for a major. There are plenty of places where you can work for low pay, with long hours and no union without shelling out the big bucks.
 

RueterF16

Active member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
40
Total Time
3500
Confused..

I think some of you are confused about the airline industry and low payscales... The industry as a whole isn't going to be damaged by pilots paying for training, or paying to get their flight time with a company. The payscales are the way they are because that is what the economy will support. Now, I know that you will say that unions have helped acheive a nice payscale for their members and there are a lot of benefits to a union, they have and there are but, it hasn't come without it's costs. Most of those costs are in the furloughs of junior members. A pilot paying for training is not harming the industry in anyway. The fact is, there are more pilots out there than there are positions to fill... plain and simple that gives the companies the chance to lower their payscales. You have your options, Either get rid of 10-20,000 pilots and make that margin a little better, call an industry wide strike (which will never happen) and keep people from training anymore to insure your job security, OR live with the fact that airline companies are going to pay you what you're worth (in their eyes, not yours). If you don't want to settle for a lower paying airline job... don't bother applying to that company, you would be better suited getting a higher paying non-flying job and flying private on the side.
 

airmack

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2001
Posts
63
Total Time
2 mins
Gulfstream reply...

Why do people get so worked up about pay for training? Some of these pilots sound like a bunch of whiney babies that probably never held down a "real" job in their life. Given the opportunity, I am quite sure that many, if not all the pilots, who bash pay-for-training programs, would be the first in line to go to Southwest Airlines (where you pay for your type rating). I am currently with GIA, and being ex-military the GOV. picked up the majority of my training expense. All this garbage about being marked on your resume is just that! GARBAGE! Our guys are getting picked up with the majors just like everyone else. To answer your question, would I recommend this program? Yes, but not at this time. The airline industry is on hold so there is no flow within the company. All the non-permanent F/O's are getting the 250 hours and being let go. Within a couple of months, we will be receiving our first ATR’s from Co-Ex. Continental plans on making our entire fleet ATR. When this happens, you can say good-bye to the academy. I hope this helps. If you have anymore questions drop me a line. God Bless!
 

Wiggums

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,040
Total Time
.
Re: Gulfstream reply...

airmack said:
Why do people get so worked up about pay for training? Some of these pilots sound like a bunch of whiney babies that probably never held down a "real" job in their life.
Please explain how paying $19,800 to warm the right seat of a 1900 is a “real job”.

A real job is where you get paid a fair market wage. At a real job the company picks up the training costs. At a real job they won't kick you to the curb after 250 hours so they can get another sucker to pony up 20k.

mkingmei: You're 325hrs short of Part 135 IFR mins. Get that and find a 135 job. You'll save $20,000 and get some better experience.
 
Last edited:

publisher

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 27, 2001
Posts
592
Total Time
20,000
response

I would remind flydog of a few things.

1. UPAS was founded by ALPA

2. Gulfstream started their second officer deal in a flying situation that did not require a second officer at all. Did not take anyones job and gave some the opportunity for multi time.

3. Tell me who among us has not ever gone to a local airport and begged for some time for free.

4. I do not endorse Climbto350, I think he takes jobs from others web sites and the companies do not use him as he represents.

5. I have started three aviation companies that employ pilots and still do today. If I did them again today, I would use AEPS type of services.

6. AEPS and Air Inc must be viable, they have aviation companies and airlines who constantly indicate they work with them because they provide a service. Exploitation? If you do not think they will help you, don't use them. You obviosuly do not need any help.
 

Ty Webb

Hostage to Fortune
Joined
Dec 10, 2001
Posts
6,525
Total Time
11000+
Sorry, Guys, but I have to weigh in here.

As someone who has been following this board for the past four years (and others, some now defunct), and as someone who was looking for their first job during the PFT days of the mid 1990's, I feel pretty qualified to comment.

1) Gulfstream rents out the right seat to suckers willing to pay $18,000. for 250 hours.

2) If some pilots were not willing to pay for this seat, then GIA would be forced to actually hire and pay pilots to serve as SIC (what a concept).

3) Many of the "pilots" willing to rent that seat are from outside the US. [Why they are still allowed to get VISAs for these people is beyond me].

4) Most people who were around during the days of PFT chose NOT to pay. Those going to Comair, COEX, ACA and a few others did, but the vast majority of us did not- and it was not because we couldn't pay for it-
almost any pilot who had invested the time and money necessary to get the ratings could find somewhere to come up with $7,000. bucks, which was usually financed by the airline itself. No, most of us chose not to pay, because it seemed morally repugnant and unprofessional.

5) Those of us who chose NOT to PFT resent those who DID, and if I have a choice of hiring someone who got their experience legitimately, or hiring someone who paid money to get out of building that experience, guess who I'm going to hire?

6) At the last three companies I worked for (2 of which were in FL) we routinely received resumes from GIA guys. All of them went into the trash, at all three employers, even when we needed SIC's for our Metros. That's a fact. Chief Pilots do NOT like pilots who made a paying job disappear, and that's exactly what GIA does.

"Publisher"s bizarre statement that what GIA is doing is OK because they started by renting out the right seat in CE402's when an F/O was not required has no correlation with what they are doing today, and I would be willing to bet that an F/O was required, because they probably chose not to keep the autopilots operable, since they had a paying autopilot in the right seat.
 

Jboss

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
16
Total Time
1500
Wow.

Maybe you should consider going a bit easier on the PFT guys and Gals. I'm not one of them, but I work with a lot of them. Such was the business when they got in, and I don't blame them. Maybe it was a stupid and unfair system, but that was the system, and for some it was the best option considering every factor in their lives at the time. I just can't imagine ever discriminating against these very talented pilots in a hiring situation based solely on the fact that they pft'ed. When you interview somebody, you hire them based in large part on how they interviewed....you know, on personality. I just think you'd be selling yourself short and missing out on some great folks. But to each his own.

Fly safe
 

jaybird

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
523
Total Time
3.0+
To me it's a question of character. Put two people in the same interview. Both are great people, great pilots and meet the same minimums, however one is a PFT'er and the other worked his way up the food chain. Who would you want to choose?

It says something about a person who wants the easy way out, or into a cockpit I know I am still a neophyte in this industry, but I know taking the longer road will be more fulfilling in the end.
 

mkingmei

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 23, 2002
Posts
99
Total Time
Time?
thats enough

well i think we have moved off of the topic of my original post. I want to say thank you to the people who actually tried to give me information and no thanks to the people who used this as there own personal soap box.

all i asked for was information, i didn't ask whether anyone thought it was ."morally repugnant or unprofessional". no one ever thinks that in the long run it creates a paying job for what might be a great pilot or maybe even your best friend some day.

think about this for a second... is PFT any different then those of you that daddy bought an airplane for????????

just as a side note... has anyone done the math on 250 hours for $19800? very similar to an hour of C172 time.

thanks again
 

airmack

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 6, 2001
Posts
63
Total Time
2 mins
Re: Re: Gulfstream reply...

Wiggums said:


Please explain how paying $19,800 to warm the right seat of a 1900 is a “real job”.

In reference to your statement. Prior to going to GIA I was a mechanic in the military for 8 year busting my knuckles on fighters, while you were at your house watching Mr. Rogers and whining to your mom about kids that cut in front of you at the water fountain. I am a true believer in investing for your future. Your probably still waiting for someone to pay for your college degree. Give me a break! I didn't pay 19,800 for 250 hours. I paid $7500 for 250 hours, my Uncle Sam paid the rest. If you do the math, it's $30 per flight hour. Not a bad investment from my point of view.
 

flydog

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
542
Total Time
2500+
To Publisher:

1. UPAS was founded by ALPA

So what. They continue to charge $100 and up for people
to update resumes at airlines who are
obviously not hiring. Cheating these people out of money
by giving them false hope of a job is a scam


2. Gulfstream started their second officer deal in a flying situation that did not require a second officer at all. Did not take anyones job and gave some the opportunity for multi time.

Gulfstream isnt in the business to help people as you try
to convince us. Their only interest is their bottom line.
If Gulfstream didnt exist their business would go to a
legitimate Regional Airline that hires experienced pilots
for honest pay



3. Tell me who among us has not ever gone to a local airport and begged for some time for free.

All of us have and there is nothing wrong for it. There is
also nothing wrong with paying for that time or reimbursing
the owner, etc. This is not the same as paying for a job.
When you bum a ride from someone you are not putting
another pilot out of work and lowering the industry
pay scales



6. AEPS and Air Inc must be viable, they have aviation companies and airlines who constantly indicate they work with them because they provide a service. Exploitation? If you do not think they will help you, don't use them. You obviosuly do not need any help.

Enron must also be a viable company since companies
worked with them ?!??

Charging people $20 head to sit in a room with 30 other
pilots to listen to a so called recuiter talk about his company
is a scam. Much like going to a Wade Cook investing seminar
The reason these companies work with AEPS is because
they profit from Air Fairs and seminars
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top