Free First Officers!

[bigD]

Osprey - as a professional pilot still in the works, I don't have many of the answers, but after hearing the "what's the difference between PFT and buying the hours to a CFI?" question a few times, I thought I'd put in my two cents.

I'm in the process of building multi time right now. MEI's around here now need about 150 hours of PIC in twins before the insurance companies allow them to instruct, so essentially I'm 'buying time' by flying around in a Duchess. How is this different than paying Gulfstream or someone to sit in the right seat? Well, for one thing - flying the Duchess isn't just a means to build time. I mean, that's ONE reason I do it - but crap, I'm just enjoying the flying. I take my girlfriend to Padre, go get BBQ in Llano - get dinner in San Antonio or Houston. I'm planning on flying to Ohio in May to spend some time with family.

The way I see it - even if I had NO intention of being a professional pilot sometime in the future, I'd still have no problem forking over the cash to bum around in the Duchess (or any other plane I rent). I just love being up there, and it seems to me that the love of just flying around simply for the sake of flying just makes more sense financially than spending the money to sit and tune squawk codes into the transponder of a 1900. I guess I just don't understand how anyone who truly loves to fly cannot consider the 'process' of becoming an airline pilot to be part of the fun in it. It's a long hard road, and I'm still working through it - but I can't say that I'm not having a blast going through it!

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with.

 

[JOHN LA HAYE]

OsperyFE,

Let me tell what my gripe with PFT is. The right seat is NOT in the airplane just to fulfill some arcane FAA regulation, or to add revinue to thw bottom line. The FO is a required crewmember because the people or the items is the back deserve the added member of saftey that is provided by having a QUALFIED pilot in the right seat.
Having flown transport catagory aircraft, I can tell you that the learning curve is great enough for a pilot with time in the saddle.
Any "pilot" that is still in the process of learning how to fly at all is too far behind the power curve to be in a position to have the lives of passengers in their hands.
I do not have an issue with fast track time builders. Get what you can. However, I do take great issue with scum bag no account operations that take advantage of student pilots and sell them a bill of goods.
I am not worried about a pilot getting ahead of me by buying time.If you can buy the amount of flight time I have, you are spending more money than I have earned in several years.
In which case you should find a better way to spend your cash.
If that is the cast let me know, I'd be happy to follow along behind you and pick-up the cash that is falling out of your pockets.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T v. Pleasure Flying

Yes, indeed, BigD is buying time. What he is doing is pleasure flying. In so doing, he is building multi time to make the 150-hour PIC requirement for insurance. He is not paying for training.

Before I decided to make aviation my full-time vocation and before I got my CFI, I was a pleasure pilot. I rented the airplane every chance I could because I liked flying, just like any other weekend pilot. I was not employed as a pilot while I was a pleasure pilot. Was I paying for training? No.

Once again, if you apply for and are offered a job as a right-seater but must give them money for them to to train you as a condition of "employment," that is P-F-T. Although these companies may publish minimum "requirements" to be considered for one of these "positions," the only true requirement for "hire" is the size of the "applicant's" checking account. OspreyFE, that's the point of P-F-T that has me up in arms and most other people as well. Throw in questionable flight time and scam aspects for good measure.

Kilomike and John LaHaye are right on regarding the safety and crew requirement. The right seat of a legal two-pilot airplane is a professional crew position, demanded by the FAA for safety. People should be hired because they are qualified in terms of certificates, skills and experience. The qualification for hire absolutely, positively should not be the ability to write a big check.

I have a comment about 300-hour wonders in the system. Mesa hires its MAPD grads to the right seats of its airplanes. Mesa knows exactly what it's getting. This program is similar to foreign airline ab initio pilot training programs, such as Alitalia or Lufthansa, except that the MAPD students paid to obtain their ratings, just like any other flight school. They still have to interview successfully with Mesa and complete its intial training. They may have an edge because they are familiar with the Mesa culture and are familiar to Mesa. Finally, once they go the line these MAPD-trained FOs are drawing a paycheck (much of it to be earmarked to their student loans!). Once again, not every MAPD grad gets the Mesa interview and - once again - this is not P-F-T because these students were not given a job contingent upon completing their training.

 

[Checks]

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with

WELL SAID AND EXACTLY RIGHT!! For the guys out there that truly enjoy flying there is no big rush to fasttrack to the majors.

 

[414Flyer]

As far as I'm concerned, a zero time pilot who sits down and thinks, "What is the cheapest and fastest way to get to the right seat at a commuter..." just doesn't understand why the vast majority of us are doing this to begin with

WELL SAID AND EXACTLY RIGHT!! For the guys out there that truly enjoy flying there is no big rush to fasttrack to the majors.

Wow..glad to hear someone else thinks like I do. Some people just dont understand it when I tell them I am not in a race to get to the airlines. I got into flying because I enjoy it, not to be an airline pilot. If I get to the majors great...if not, oh well. I wont be crying. And I certainly dont spend all my time dreaming/scheming about my next job.

Some people only take jobs that will make them be what the airlines want them to be in order to get hired, instead of actually doing things they might actualy enjoy. If someone really wants to be an airline pilot, well great, but dont miss the forest for the trees.

I am in certainly not in enough of a hurry to "get ahead", that I ever considered any crap "program", or flying for free, or that I would stoop to any such thing like that. I guess for some of us, there is just more to life than how fast we can upgrade, or chase down some job.

 

[hawkerjet]

Even " whores " get paid for their services.

 

[OspreyFE]

Outstanding responces!

Thanks guys for all of the responces.. It is good to see that there are people in this industry because they love to fly. It seems to me that the past 2-3 years of heavy hiring (pre sept.) had motivated people to become professional pilots for the airlines. It is also apparent that some of them were indeed trying to find ways to expedite the process. This, in my opinion, allowed PFT type programs to exist. There have many diffrent flavors for training out there but one thing is true, you can't cut corners in the flying business. I would be curious if anyone would lead a group of us into bringing these types of operations to the open public? Maybe the only way to stop it is to allow people to know more about it. Again, just some passing thoughts..

take care, fly safe.

 

[kilomike]

Passenger's Perspective #2

Osprey FE's comments about leading a movement to bring this kind of pft scheme out into general public knowledge is an idea that is long long overdue. I am willing to bet if the general public knew what was going on that these kinds of businesses would disappear.

I thought of something else last night. Imagine if I was a passenger on a Gulfstream Beech 1900? Say the F/O has 300 hours, and the captain has maybe 1700 hours. Well, guess what, a ticketed passenger (me) has more flight experience than the flight crew combined. Now I consider that a sad state of affairs. I have 2,900 hours and am still active as a general aviation pilot.

I would be uncomfortable flying on a turbine powered aircraft knowing that the crew was buying their experience and on top of it had less experience than a PASSENGER! That's why I prefer to travel on Southwest especially and any of the major airlines any day when I am buying a ticket. I like to go on a flight knowing that my crew has sufficient experience to handle anything that comes their way, especially if there is an emergency situation. I sure as hell do not want to be paying for a ticket on flight flown by someone buying experience!!!!! I believe that I'm paying the way for the crew and as a passenger I expect them to be earning a PAYCHECK as a result of my paying for a ticket.

Now, to clarify, I personally do not mind flying with a 300-hour pilot who is giving me a rental checkout and is getting paid for doing so. That instructor is gaining valuable experience and I would be glad to see that instructor eventually (after gaining some good experience as an instructor) when I am a passenger on a flight. I think flight instruction, dropping sky divers, etc. are great ways for low time pilots to gain experience. Low time pilots, PLEASE make sure you are earning a paycheck--that student or skydiver is paying you so you can get PAID!!!

This is an excellent forum and a great way to keep up with the aviation industry. It's appalling to know that this kind of thing is still going on.

Fly safe!! and don't forget to enjoy the journey along the way.

kilomike

 

[Bluestreak]

From Climbto350.com

Well,looky here-I guess they also donated everything to Ford and GEICO.Next time I see them,they'll get the one finger salute:
 
March 14, 2002
SKYTYPERS (Part Time Sky Typer Pilots - Florida)
South Florida (FXE)
Tel: no calls
Fax: (561) 738-6623
Email: [email protected]
Web Site: none
SkyTypers does high-tech aerial advertising using five aircraft (Grumman Tigers) in V formation with a computer controlled smoke system to do "dot matrix" printing. We did all of the "smoke in the sky" for Ford, Heineken and GEICO at this year's Daytona 500 on 2/17. We are looking for a number of part time pilots with the following qualifications: Located in South Florida (closer to FXE the better); Commercial and instrument ratings; 750 hours PIC minimum. Formation experience desirable, but we will train to meet our requirements. THESE ARE UNPAID POSITIONS!! - we do it for fun!

Wooo-weee !! Working for FREE while they get paid FOR YOUR FREE LABOR sounds like fun to me !

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T and Work-For-Free

I like Kilomike's idea of somehow making the flying public aware of these fine P-F-T'ers in the right seats. Sounds like an article for the Wall Street Journal, anyway.

How about a wage-and-hour investigation for these outfits - and particularly for the skywriting operation? It seems to me if a company is doing business and has people doing work, they should be compensated somehow, even they're not employees but so-called independent contractors. It's against the law to work for free.