??? for XJ and Pinnacle pilots...

[Anaconda]

this is copied from another board...what's the story on this and what do you all think of this offer?

Below is a link to NWA's proposal to merge senoirity lists with PCL (Pinnacle Airlines) and MSA (Mesaba) which would require all jet powered aircraft to be flown by Northwest Airlines and require an increase in pay for the 2 regional carriers.

http://www.airlinkpilots.com/docs/SingleSenListDraft.PDF

Our union is soliciting for input on pro's and con's for this type of merger. IE (list merger do's and dont's, Pay fences if any, future hiring requirements, flow up and flow down policies, diposition of NWA pilots currently on furlough, protection of PCL and MSA pilots not furloughed..etc). There are over 600+ mainline NWA pilots and 20 or so Mesaba pilots on furlough at this time.

 

[ksu_aviator]

As my first response I would say that this won't likely pass the XJ or EXA memberships.

Here is why. Each airline (XJ and EXA) would immediately loose 300 jobs to NWA pilots as part of the agreement. I'm assuming of course that a flowback/flowthrough arrangement would be included in the agreement. Of course, with in each company 300 captains would be displaced back to FO and 300 FO's would be crying on the doorsteps of COMAIR, AWAC, ACA, ASA etc.

Long term, this may work, but short term I think EXA and XJ pilots are going to CYA and not pass this resolution.

If its going to pass, NWA MEC is either going to have to grandfather a clause that would not allow current NWA pilots to flow back or wait until all pilots have been recalled and then pass the agreement.

By the way, this is the first I've heard of this. XJ's MEC hasn't brought this to our attention as of yet.

 

[General Lee]

You msut be a "short term" thinker. This whole thing is a cycle. There will be good times again. And, When NW expands again in a year or so---you will be left out. I have many friends who Fly for Mesaba, and they say they can't get an interview. (In good times) Well, here's your chance to fly for the airline that you feed.
Would a lot of guys get furloughed? Maybe not, if you have a large delivery rate of CRJ's etc. Maybe it could be tied in with that----for every new airplane that is delivered, some furloughed NW pilots can fly that. There might be a little stagnation in upgrades for FO's, but when things turn around, and they eventually will, things will move fast again. And then, maybe you'll be flying an A320 instead of that Avro or CRJ.

There is a proposal at ASA/COMAIR for the same type of thing, and there are the same concerns. I can understand that, but it should be looked at. This maybe the last time anyone has a chance for a flow through. Instead of being a short term thinker
or looking only at the small picture, maybe you should OPEN YOUR EYES and look at the BIG picture. I am at Delta and I am not furloughed, but I still took a look at it and it makes sense.

Bye Bye----General Lee

 

[Guam360]

Gen. Lee,

Since when has a proposal been offered to us?

I have never heard of it, how about you Anaconda?

Anaconda, nice job adding CRJ.!

 

[Anaconda]

hey guam, how did it go in the box? i trust you will be adding crj soon as well...

i assume the "proposal" he is referring to is in reference to the thread that's on here about a similar arrangement for com/asa. it is a hypothetical proposal put forth by (i believe) an asa pilot that has not been formally endorsed by any union rep. ithe same proposal is also being addressed on the main alpa board.

as for the notion that nwa may be expanding in another year, well, i guess that is probably the topic of another thread...

 

[Britpilot]

No thanks, we have been burned by the flow through/flow back that most of us did not vote for in the first place. I want seniority protection and will be glad to see the end of the flow through. A single list was touted some time ago and was not backed by the mainline pilot group so it was shelved. I have a hard time beliving that any of the major airlines will be hiring in the next two years with all the recalls that have to occur first it maybe five to ten years before any significant hiring takes place. Better to protect my job now than hope for a hiring trend that might not happen. This seems like some sort of catch net for mainline pilots to me at this stage of the game.

 

[Guam360]

I agree.

Yea dude, I will put that in the "a/c flown" section, went very well, Ted did well also.

I need a place to live now.

...and it ain't gonna be Cincitucky.( armpit of the USA )

 

[ksu_aviator]

So back to General Lee...

First, in the short term, I'm probably going to be leaving XJ soon anyway. Not my choice, but not a bad thing either. So short term is all I need to worry about.

Second, if I managed to stay on at XJ long enough for a flow through to do me any good I doubt I'd want to take advantage of it. More than likely I would hold out for SWA, FedEx or some other airline. NWA is not on the top of my list, doesn't even make the top 10.

Third, I've heard a lot of mixed reviews about the Jets for Jobs programs and I'm not sure Mesaba would benefit from it. I still believe that we will get a quality contract and we will grow under NWA despite Big Sky.

I do agree though that we would have much more bargaining power and could benefit in the long term. But, the key word is could. Remember, that if we sign on with this plan we will be out numbered in the union by the NWA pilots. They would control contract negotiations and might sell out XJ and EXA pilots to save their own jobs. It happened at XJ when our previous contract was signed and the FO's where sold out to get the Captains good pay. Even now, FO's that are more senior to Captains are being displaced by the less senior captains that are being "downgraded" to FO. I don't trust the NWA union to protect us. I see this as their opportunity to save their own.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You msut be a "short term" thinker. ...

Would a lot of guys get furloughed? Maybe not, if you have a large delivery rate of CRJ's etc. Maybe it could be tied in with that----for every new airplane that is delivered, some furloughed NW pilots can fly that....

There is a proposal at ASA/COMAIR for the same type of thing, and there are the same concerns. I can understand that, but it should be looked at. This maybe the last time anyone has a chance for a flow through....

Do you mean a flow through for mainline pilots, or Small Jet pilots? Delta announced today the upcoming retirement of ALL MD-11's and deferral of ALL mainline jets through 2004. That means a bunch of Delta's most senior pilots are coming down the stove pipe, bump, bump, bump.

Just what promises or FUTURE employment are you making in exchange for OUR JOBS RIGHT NOW?

Of course - our "last chance for a flow through" was squashed at the last Board of Directors meeting when the Delta MEC Chairman misrepresented - aw heck - he out and out lied - about the secret side letter of agreement and other "operational integration" issues.

Candidly, you guys just want our jets and our jobs. In exchange you offer us a flow through to a company that might be "declaring bankruptcy in the second, or third, quarter of next year if things don't change radically." Some how I do not think you have our best interests at heart, or have any interest in "restoring the union."

Your MEC and National made this mess for you guys. They created domestic codeshare while negotiating with Ron Allen. You sold my flying to preserve your pay structure and no, you can not take it back now - not even with the promise of some future job that might, maybe, could possibly, happen.

Have you guys noticed the general theme here? Mainline pilots take the small jets now and someday, after we have explored all the issues in committee and arranged for our military buddies to get better seniority, then we might work out a plan for you to get a seniority number. I call bull effluvia!

If mainline wants one list, good. Give me a number and seat protections THEN, and ONLY THEN, will we talk about you taking my airplane.

 

[FlyingSig]

Delta announced today the upcoming retirement of ALL MD-11's and deferral of ALL mainline jets through 2004. That means a bunch of Delta's most senior pilots are coming down the stove pipe, bump, bump, bump.

Lest we confuse the bumping with the soundbite here....

Yes the bid that came out today reflects the MD11's going away... however this bid also reflects 497 vacancies and 490 surpluses ... a net gain of 7 positions. I may be grabbing straws here but this might be a subtle sign that the furloughs may be nearing an end.

This bid also takes airplanes out of the desert (737G) and establishes a new category in NYC. While you hate to see the high paying positions dissapear, it's not all gloom and doom.