Ihaveflown
"We in a tight spot!"
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2004
- Posts
- 21
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FLOPS Overtime
- Thread starter Voice Of Reason
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Not just golden boys...
In the good ol' bad ol' days, there were a couple guys I knew that stayed on the road for extended times, but I don't believe that happens anymore. Also back then, scheduling only offered OT to "their buds"... defined as guys who didn't squawk too much when day 8 airlines sucked, or would exceed the duty times, or whatever. Its not like that now from what I've seen.
Now the company counts on CPTs working OT rather than to actually hire/upgrade the pilots needed to meet demand (or to actually develop a proactive approach to management). I always said no to OT... why would I want to cut my own throat (since I was an FO) and it doesn't pay that much for a small cabin FO either. Virtually all of my CPT buds do it though, 2 or 3 days a tour if they want it... I don't think any CPT in the beechjet would ever be denied OT. So the CPTs help "fill the gap" by working OT, and the company helps to "fill the gap" by leasing extra aircraft (like 5 Beechjets this holiday season). AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS, as the gap gets wider as more guys FINALLY get tired of working a 9/6 or 10/5?!!? Well then, the duty days get longer for everyone, and there are less vacations grated, and upgrades all but stop, management limits how much of your reserve (sick) time you can take in a year (since more people have to use reserve time to get time off), per diem rules change, and the seniority list starts getting smaller from the bottom up as FOs begin jumping ship (in the light of slow/no upgrades, limited domiciles, training contracts, and because the future looks so bleak in gereral). Pilot attitudes start turning negative, there is renewed talk of union representation, and so on and so forth. There is a silver lining however, those CPTs that work the OT add a few extra bucks to their bottom line.
No more for me, I've gone elsewhere.
In the good ol' bad ol' days, there were a couple guys I knew that stayed on the road for extended times, but I don't believe that happens anymore. Also back then, scheduling only offered OT to "their buds"... defined as guys who didn't squawk too much when day 8 airlines sucked, or would exceed the duty times, or whatever. Its not like that now from what I've seen.
Now the company counts on CPTs working OT rather than to actually hire/upgrade the pilots needed to meet demand (or to actually develop a proactive approach to management). I always said no to OT... why would I want to cut my own throat (since I was an FO) and it doesn't pay that much for a small cabin FO either. Virtually all of my CPT buds do it though, 2 or 3 days a tour if they want it... I don't think any CPT in the beechjet would ever be denied OT. So the CPTs help "fill the gap" by working OT, and the company helps to "fill the gap" by leasing extra aircraft (like 5 Beechjets this holiday season). AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS, as the gap gets wider as more guys FINALLY get tired of working a 9/6 or 10/5?!!? Well then, the duty days get longer for everyone, and there are less vacations grated, and upgrades all but stop, management limits how much of your reserve (sick) time you can take in a year (since more people have to use reserve time to get time off), per diem rules change, and the seniority list starts getting smaller from the bottom up as FOs begin jumping ship (in the light of slow/no upgrades, limited domiciles, training contracts, and because the future looks so bleak in gereral). Pilot attitudes start turning negative, there is renewed talk of union representation, and so on and so forth. There is a silver lining however, those CPTs that work the OT add a few extra bucks to their bottom line.
No more for me, I've gone elsewhere.
We used to get per diem regardless of whether you were at work or not. Now because of some mumbo jumbo bs about our taxes and liability they have reversed that and are taking away the perdiem for vacation days or sick days. Seems that if it was a tax problem it would have come up long before now. More likely than not it was just an easy way for them to screw the pilots and give a pay cut that with some semi-plausible crap about it being for our good. If they really were looking out for us, they would raise the remaining per diem just enough that no one would lose a penny for the days they were taking away. That would totally get around any so-called tax issues and everyone would be making the same amount. Pretty easy, but instead it's a pretty obvious ploy to help the bean counters bottom line by f-in the pilots once again.
XShipRider
Cynic of Epic Proportions
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2005
- Posts
- 457
Scheduling and OT at FLOPs
To quote a previous post: "Also back then, scheduling only offered OT to "their buds"... defined as guys who didn't squawk too much when day 8 airlines sucked, or would exceed the duty times, or whatever. Its not like that now from what I've seen."
I can give you some insight on how Scheduling picked OT candidates (first hand knowledge, you might say). No names or initials of FLOPs schedulers will be used since it's not necessary for our purposes.
There were indeed schedulers who would offer OT, needed or not, to their "buds." I was not one of them and when I caught that I would put the kibosh on it post haste. One scheduler in particular would offer OT at the beginning of the duty line without knowing whether OT would be needed at the end of the line or not. This often resulted in my taking over a board with PICs and SICs sitting at home while some PIC was drawing several days of OT to cover a "...hole in the schedule." In the words of Colonel Sherman Potter, "Horse hockey." I would immediately send this person home.
I can tell you this, OT was offered to the same pilots over and over again because these people would make themselves available for the days needed (often days in the middle of their normal days off). This led to the perception that OT was ONLY offered to these people. Not true. Quite often OT would be offered to both the PIC and SIC to cover a particular trip or because day 8 airlines would put them over on duty time (proving some of your assertion correct). Under these conditions there was absolutely no favoritism, just schedulers trying to cover a trip or full day.
Some of the pilots (keyword: SOME) would offer OT when they needed it to pay for a vacation, holiday, bills, house, etc., and it wouldn't be offered to them. Why? Most of the time they were "out of position" for the plane needing coverage (e.g. sitting in MCC, plane in TEB). This would have had that person airlining West to East (an all day venture as most of you know) and essentially useless for the OT day.
Another scenario: West Coast DOM pilots would offer OT if they could "...stay out West." Deal. Yeah, right! Like the scheduler could ensure the owners would stay out West. This one is almost funny.
Day 8... the biggie in just about everyone's eyes. Deal: Fly all day on day 8 for first airlines out on day 9. Okay. Deal broken by 3rd shift... rotten b#@tards! Analysis: 95% of the time the day shift scheduler did not make the 3rd shift scheduler aware of any deal. There was no note in the grid and no mention in any pass down media. This not only hosed the crew it hosed 3rd shift. Bring in the big guns 'cause someone is getting their arse chewed by the PM. I admit this happened all too often and led many crews to opt out of the "Let's Make a Deal" biz. One can't blame the crews for not playing along on this one. Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me.
None of this is a slam on the pilots. You have to put yourself in the OCC for a few days to see how the whole mess works (sic). There are so many scenarios they are too numerous to author here. But it sounds like the thinking in the OCC has changed and OT is now only offered when absolutely necessary. No longer working there I can't tell you for sure.
To quote a previous post: "Also back then, scheduling only offered OT to "their buds"... defined as guys who didn't squawk too much when day 8 airlines sucked, or would exceed the duty times, or whatever. Its not like that now from what I've seen."
I can give you some insight on how Scheduling picked OT candidates (first hand knowledge, you might say). No names or initials of FLOPs schedulers will be used since it's not necessary for our purposes.
There were indeed schedulers who would offer OT, needed or not, to their "buds." I was not one of them and when I caught that I would put the kibosh on it post haste. One scheduler in particular would offer OT at the beginning of the duty line without knowing whether OT would be needed at the end of the line or not. This often resulted in my taking over a board with PICs and SICs sitting at home while some PIC was drawing several days of OT to cover a "...hole in the schedule." In the words of Colonel Sherman Potter, "Horse hockey." I would immediately send this person home.
I can tell you this, OT was offered to the same pilots over and over again because these people would make themselves available for the days needed (often days in the middle of their normal days off). This led to the perception that OT was ONLY offered to these people. Not true. Quite often OT would be offered to both the PIC and SIC to cover a particular trip or because day 8 airlines would put them over on duty time (proving some of your assertion correct). Under these conditions there was absolutely no favoritism, just schedulers trying to cover a trip or full day.
Some of the pilots (keyword: SOME) would offer OT when they needed it to pay for a vacation, holiday, bills, house, etc., and it wouldn't be offered to them. Why? Most of the time they were "out of position" for the plane needing coverage (e.g. sitting in MCC, plane in TEB). This would have had that person airlining West to East (an all day venture as most of you know) and essentially useless for the OT day.
Another scenario: West Coast DOM pilots would offer OT if they could "...stay out West." Deal. Yeah, right! Like the scheduler could ensure the owners would stay out West. This one is almost funny.
Day 8... the biggie in just about everyone's eyes. Deal: Fly all day on day 8 for first airlines out on day 9. Okay. Deal broken by 3rd shift... rotten b#@tards! Analysis: 95% of the time the day shift scheduler did not make the 3rd shift scheduler aware of any deal. There was no note in the grid and no mention in any pass down media. This not only hosed the crew it hosed 3rd shift. Bring in the big guns 'cause someone is getting their arse chewed by the PM. I admit this happened all too often and led many crews to opt out of the "Let's Make a Deal" biz. One can't blame the crews for not playing along on this one. Burn me once shame on you, burn me twice shame on me.
None of this is a slam on the pilots. You have to put yourself in the OCC for a few days to see how the whole mess works (sic). There are so many scenarios they are too numerous to author here. But it sounds like the thinking in the OCC has changed and OT is now only offered when absolutely necessary. No longer working there I can't tell you for sure.
Who do they think they are working OT?!
There is only one way that refusing to work OT is going to change anything. That is if we are organized. Otherwise it has no effect because there is always the next guy in line who NEEDS the money. I know what you're thinking. Those dirty wrotten selfish ?#$*&'s working OT so they can pay thier bills, fix their cars, and put clothes on their families back! How can they be screwing the rest of us like that? Yes...many of these losers could work a PT job on their days off, and it would probably only take six of their seven off at a PT job to make as much as one day at FO.
I think we should just all get together and beat them silly with sticks for not doing what we think is appropriate! I know if we had the teamsters backing us they would be willing to bust a few knee caps to get the point across.
There is only one way that refusing to work OT is going to change anything. That is if we are organized. Otherwise it has no effect because there is always the next guy in line who NEEDS the money. I know what you're thinking. Those dirty wrotten selfish ?#$*&'s working OT so they can pay thier bills, fix their cars, and put clothes on their families back! How can they be screwing the rest of us like that? Yes...many of these losers could work a PT job on their days off, and it would probably only take six of their seven off at a PT job to make as much as one day at FO.
I think we should just all get together and beat them silly with sticks for not doing what we think is appropriate! I know if we had the teamsters backing us they would be willing to bust a few knee caps to get the point across.
XShipRider
Cynic of Epic Proportions
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2005
- Posts
- 457
Pay Scale
Wow! Monster.com lists your median wage (SIC or CP) as:
[font=verdana,arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The median expected salary for a typical Co-Pilot (Small Jet) in Cleveland, OH 44145, is $73,296. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.
We all know you're making very close to that.
Don't shoot me, I'm only kidding. We all know you're lucky to be making half that. I guess FO needs to do some rework on the pay scale. Oh, by the way, the Low side was 57K and the high side was 89K.
You people aren't even close to the low side without putting in 10 days of OT a month.
[/font]
Wow! Monster.com lists your median wage (SIC or CP) as:
[font=verdana,arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The median expected salary for a typical Co-Pilot (Small Jet) in Cleveland, OH 44145, is $73,296. This basic market pricing report was prepared using our Certified Compensation Professionals' analysis of survey data collected from thousands of HR departments at employers of all sizes, industries and geographies.
We all know you're making very close to that.
Don't shoot me, I'm only kidding. We all know you're lucky to be making half that. I guess FO needs to do some rework on the pay scale. Oh, by the way, the Low side was 57K and the high side was 89K.
You people aren't even close to the low side without putting in 10 days of OT a month.
[/font]
captain-small jet
These are guys that fly half the number of hours per year and spend half the number of days per year on road on average. Cross check with commercial business and aviation annual flight crew survey numbers. Fractional pilots are pulling down half what the industry norm per flight hour or days overnight on road either way you want to figure it.
http://salary.monster.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=&metrocode=39&statecode=OH&state=Ohio&metro=Cleveland&city=&geo=Cleveland%2C+OH&jobtitle=Captain%2FPilot+in+Command+%28Small+Jet%29&search=&narrowdesc=Aviation+and+Airlines&narrowcode=TR01&r=mnstr_swzttsbtn_psr&p=MNSTR42X&geocode=&jobcode=TR20000009
These are guys that fly half the number of hours per year and spend half the number of days per year on road on average. Cross check with commercial business and aviation annual flight crew survey numbers. Fractional pilots are pulling down half what the industry norm per flight hour or days overnight on road either way you want to figure it.
http://salary.monster.com/salarywizard/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=&metrocode=39&statecode=OH&state=Ohio&metro=Cleveland&city=&geo=Cleveland%2C+OH&jobtitle=Captain%2FPilot+in+Command+%28Small+Jet%29&search=&narrowdesc=Aviation+and+Airlines&narrowcode=TR01&r=mnstr_swzttsbtn_psr&p=MNSTR42X&geocode=&jobcode=TR20000009
Grim Reaper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 17, 2002
- Posts
- 139
Well, all I can say is this; if you are with Flight Options and need the money you better get the OT money while you can. I do not think that Flight Options is gonna be around much past June.
The current management team is not competent. These guys can not even spell 135. I predict that the FAA will shut Flight Options down for a period of time shortly after the 135 switch is tripped. Recent events associated with the FAA are a clear indicator.
Best advice to the FO pilots is, if you have a job offer take it, if you do not have a offer pending you should have been looking before now. The current management team is not aware of what they do not know and will be surprised beyond belief when things grind to a halt because of exactly what they did not know.
The current management team is not competent. These guys can not even spell 135. I predict that the FAA will shut Flight Options down for a period of time shortly after the 135 switch is tripped. Recent events associated with the FAA are a clear indicator.
Best advice to the FO pilots is, if you have a job offer take it, if you do not have a offer pending you should have been looking before now. The current management team is not aware of what they do not know and will be surprised beyond belief when things grind to a halt because of exactly what they did not know.
SheGaveMeClap
Your wife's boyfriend
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2001
- Posts
- 447
February 17th is going to be one UGLY day for Flight Options. Hey guys, let's fly part 135 starting Dec. 1st. Oh yeah, I know it's the middle of January, but we can't handle 135, so let's go back to part 91 again, for another month.
Hey TS, if we couldn't handle part 135 last month, who's to say we are going to handle it when we are FORCED to flip the switch and there's no turning back? Management is digging it's own grave, they deserve whatever happens to them. For the pilots who really enjoy or need this job, I feel for you. For the rest of us who do it because we can't find anything different, better start working a little harder on finding new employment. This place has gone from bad to worse, but it's going to downgrade to horrible in a few weeks. Let's enjoy the ride!!
Hey TS, if we couldn't handle part 135 last month, who's to say we are going to handle it when we are FORCED to flip the switch and there's no turning back? Management is digging it's own grave, they deserve whatever happens to them. For the pilots who really enjoy or need this job, I feel for you. For the rest of us who do it because we can't find anything different, better start working a little harder on finding new employment. This place has gone from bad to worse, but it's going to downgrade to horrible in a few weeks. Let's enjoy the ride!!
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