Fat & Ugly Pilots And FAs Need Not Apply...

J.Otto

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Compared to their U.S. counterparts, the European crews sure look the part, like something out of a movie the way they negotiate through the terminal. They seem more sophisticated, debonair, and have a sort of "je ne sais quoi" to them. Major pilots in the U.S. heading to the shuttle look more like Ralph Kramden after a double shift down at the bus depot. Disheveled, out of shape, with an accompanied scowl, betraying a look of disgust and excessive pride.
 
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spitfire1500

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Compared to their U.S. counterparts, the European crews sure look the part, like something out of a movie the way they negotiate through the terminal. They seem more sophisticated, debonair, and have a sort of "je ne sais quoi" to them. Major pilots in the U.S. heading to the shuttle look more like Ralph Kramden after a double shift down at the bus depot. Disheveled, out of shape, with an accompanied scowl, betraying a look of disgust and excessive pride.

Yea, but can they fly.
 

brokeflyer

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flying in the US is a lot tougher duty. And US pilots are just better pilots....they dont need to look good.

Good looks never saved a doomed plane.
 

Dumb Pilot

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flying in the US is a lot tougher duty. And US pilots are just better pilots....they dont need to look good.

Good looks never saved a doomed plane.
But being a good aviator and not having a spare tire around your waist and having all your hair is much better....!:beer:
 

cameltoad

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Uhhhhh, I'd ease up on the "US pilots are just better pilots" talk, after 25 years of NE flying, check airman on several jets I found myself furloughed and taking employment in the middle wast for 2 yes and then another 2 in China. I'll be the first to admit I thought I was pretty hot stuff, the reality was foreign sim standards and ICAO flying was a steep learning curve. Now that I'm back at my "major" as a wide body F/o and sim instructor, trust me, most of our pilots could never cut it abroad
 

bafanguy

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...trust me, most of our pilots could never cut it abroad
Can you be more specific ? In what ways would they fall short ?

There are quite a few American pilots in the expat world, apparently doing OK.
 

HalinTexas

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Can you be more specific ? In what ways would they fall short ?

There are quite a few American pilots in the expat world, apparently doing OK.
Mostly attitude. We question authority. Non-Western pilots don't.

Training is longer overseas, at least in Asia. There is a bit of provincialism with Americans. "We do it better." That's not necessarily true. We have more experience and are more willing to share and learn from others.

The problem with Asian pilot culture is that they tend to be very rote pilots. There is only one way to fly airplanes. Put them outside SOP and they kinda freak out a bit. They are also continually afraid for their jobs. FOQA data is used against them. FOQA is God.

I've sat in the JS of just about every US carrier. None stand out as better than the others.
 

bafanguy

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HalinTexas,

So, this just involves cultural differences appearing in the airline business in the form of attitudes rather than stick-and-rudder skills ? It would seem something cultural would be very hard to change. Some Westerners have come to terms with it well enough to function in a performance-or-punishment environment (they're better men than I).

I think it was Dumb Pilot who said in another thread something akin to...their reality isn't our reality.

That sure seems to describe what you explained.

The first question that comes to my mind is: how is THEIR reality working for them ?

The carriers in question continue to operate so can you say their reality is working well enough ?
 

cameltoad

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It is cultural and it is somewhat the cards they are dealt. Their Captains have a good bit more power but it is all on them. The US Carriers went to AQP decades ago, a philosophy of let the F/O fly the plane while the Captain works the problem, get advice from QRH, Supplemental binders, Dispatch, Maintenance, etc. and without a doubt it is a better way to do things. One guy fly, one guy work the problem, not "lets all concentrate on this lightbulb while she settles into a swamp."
In the middle East, Asia they still practice the basic PC check. Throw everything at a Captain and by god he better perform, I flew at an Asian carrier for two years that did not allow the F/O's I flew with to do ANY takeoffs or landings, so what level do you think the Airline and the CAAC or any governing body wanted to see demonstrated from a guy that they didn"t even know 60 days ago? Multiple unrelated failures were the norm of the day in the sim. I personally had a year check, and please excuse if I get a little too Airbus here for a wider audience, a sim ride that the last scenario ended with a non database VOR approach after suffering a dual ELAC failure, this means spoilers only for roll control, and no Auto Pilot, that died with the loss of both ELAC's Hand flown down to Mins. yup, airport not in sight, go around. The moment we go TOGA, BAM engine failure, so hand fly the published miss, in mountainous terrain, while securing the engine. And finally exit the hand flown hold at the NDB to execute again a non database NDB this time on one engine, spoilers only, handflown all in the required 25kt Chinese crosswind.
Is this a better way to do things, I don't think so, its unrealistic and the very best pilot in the world is sooner or later going to make a mistake and if the F/O sits and says nothing or more likely the Capt doesn't solicit input a tragic error will happen that could have been adverted.
But I also can say this, after teaching in the Sim as well as being a line pilot at one of the "big three" for the last several years, not to many of our guys would pull this off successfully, at least the first time. I KNOW most would have just stopped mid exercise and proclaimed "I'm not doing this crap" and I also know without a shadow of a doubt the Expat and foreign Capts. know a whole lot more about the nuts and bolts of the planes they fly just like we used to. I still remember what was on the nose squat switch of a J-32 not that it ever mattered one bit on how I flew it, and again, I don't endorse this as the way to go. Also another huge point of why I said what I said is the guys abroad don't get the luxury of many things we take for granted. Everybody speaking perfect English, maintenance a simple radio call away and by far the biggest factor, the one thing that makes us all look soooo much better than we are, an ATC system and system of airports and approaches that is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the rest of the world. You blow a motor, pop a cabin, get to emergency electrical config. over the US we have the unbelievable luxury of doing nothing more than "*****636 has a major issue, we need vectors to 10,000ft of concrete with an ILS NOW!" and you know it will happen, they will get everyone out of the way, and excellent services are waiting where you are going. A lot of guys can't comprehend having to announce position while executing full procedure turn VOR, NDB non database apprchs, (this is kinda a tough deal in an Airbus, it means flying it in TRAK/FPA and manually driving it around with the autopilot, it will load you up especially in an environment where you've had charts out to figure out MOCA, MORA et al. all the way in the last 30 min. you're on your own, vertically as well as laterally) in non radar environment day after day after day. Being in class 2 airspace with only HF while still over a land mass and the controlling radio is in another country away with an incomprehensible accent and all of a sudden the only thing they have to say to you is that your destination is closed now, state intentions. Trust me, Asia, Africa, Middle East, India, these guys are the BY GOD Captain, but they would love to not have to be.
 

bafanguy

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cameltoad,

Yikes ! Their reality sure isn't our reality. :eek:

Glad I missed all those goodies but my hat's off to those of you who didn't.
 

HalinTexas

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I fly for a Japanese domestic, so I don't see those extremes in checks.

Stick/rudder skills are important. Communication skills are more so, since there are so many expats from a variety of countries and English is the only commonality. CRM = order, do. Lots of 500-hr wonders in Asia.

I have friends that are in China. Haven't heard of the specific check ride mentioned above, but I wouldn't doubt it.

I wouldn't say they have different realities as much as different experiences and expectations.
 

Shrek

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It is cultural and it is somewhat the cards they are dealt. Their Captains have a good bit more power but it is all on them. The US Carriers went to AQP decades ago, a philosophy of let the F/O fly the plane while the Captain works the problem, get advice from QRH, Supplemental binders, Dispatch, Maintenance, etc. and without a doubt it is a better way to do things. One guy fly, one guy work the problem, not "lets all concentrate on this lightbulb while she settles into a swamp."
In the middle East, Asia they still practice the basic PC check. Throw everything at a Captain and by god he better perform, I flew at an Asian carrier for two years that did not allow the F/O's I flew with to do ANY takeoffs or landings, so what level do you think the Airline and the CAAC or any governing body wanted to see demonstrated from a guy that they didn"t even know 60 days ago? Multiple unrelated failures were the norm of the day in the sim. I personally had a year check, and please excuse if I get a little too Airbus here for a wider audience, a sim ride that the last scenario ended with a non database VOR approach after suffering a dual ELAC failure, this means spoilers only for roll control, and no Auto Pilot, that died with the loss of both ELAC's Hand flown down to Mins. yup, airport not in sight, go around. The moment we go TOGA, BAM engine failure, so hand fly the published miss, in mountainous terrain, while securing the engine. And finally exit the hand flown hold at the NDB to execute again a non database NDB this time on one engine, spoilers only, handflown all in the required 25kt Chinese crosswind.
Is this a better way to do things, I don't think so, its unrealistic and the very best pilot in the world is sooner or later going to make a mistake and if the F/O sits and says nothing or more likely the Capt doesn't solicit input a tragic error will happen that could have been adverted.
But I also can say this, after teaching in the Sim as well as being a line pilot at one of the "big three" for the last several years, not to many of our guys would pull this off successfully, at least the first time. I KNOW most would have just stopped mid exercise and proclaimed "I'm not doing this crap" and I also know without a shadow of a doubt the Expat and foreign Capts. know a whole lot more about the nuts and bolts of the planes they fly just like we used to. I still remember what was on the nose squat switch of a J-32 not that it ever mattered one bit on how I flew it, and again, I don't endorse this as the way to go. Also another huge point of why I said what I said is the guys abroad don't get the luxury of many things we take for granted. Everybody speaking perfect English, maintenance a simple radio call away and by far the biggest factor, the one thing that makes us all look soooo much better than we are, an ATC system and system of airports and approaches that is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the rest of the world. You blow a motor, pop a cabin, get to emergency electrical config. over the US we have the unbelievable luxury of doing nothing more than "*****636 has a major issue, we need vectors to 10,000ft of concrete with an ILS NOW!" and you know it will happen, they will get everyone out of the way, and excellent services are waiting where you are going. A lot of guys can't comprehend having to announce position while executing full procedure turn VOR, NDB non database apprchs, (this is kinda a tough deal in an Airbus, it means flying it in TRAK/FPA and manually driving it around with the autopilot, it will load you up especially in an environment where you've had charts out to figure out MOCA, MORA et al. all the way in the last 30 min. you're on your own, vertically as well as laterally) in non radar environment day after day after day. Being in class 2 airspace with only HF while still over a land mass and the controlling radio is in another country away with an incomprehensible accent and all of a sudden the only thing they have to say to you is that your destination is closed now, state intentions. Trust me, Asia, Africa, Middle East, India, these guys are the BY GOD Captain, but they would love to not have to be.
Same same but different at Vietnam Airlines - 2008-2012 anyways :)
Insane way to "teach" but you just do it and receive paycheck - rinse repeat.
 

CX880

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Mostly attitude. We question authority. Non-Western pilots don't.

Training is longer overseas, at least in Asia. There is a bit of provincialism with Americans. "We do it better." That's not necessarily true. We have more experience and are more willing to share and learn from others.

The problem with Asian pilot culture is that they tend to be very rote pilots. There is only one way to fly airplanes. Put them outside SOP and they kinda freak out a bit. They are also continually afraid for their jobs. FOQA data is used against them. FOQA is God.

I've sat in the JS of just about every US carrier. None stand out as better than the others.
Of course it's longer there they go from a Cessna to a A320 or even A330 or 777. In the U.S. Most pilots have way more experience with thousands of hours before they step foot in a airliner so there's no need need for lengthy examinations like abroad. You can take theory tests for months and in sims but can you actually fly?? That's the difference between US and abroad.
 

sniper

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Of course it's longer there they go from a Cessna to a A320 or even A330 or 777. In the U.S. Most pilots have way more experience with thousands of hours before they step foot in a airliner so there's no need need for lengthy examinations like abroad. You can take theory tests for months and in sims but can you actually fly?? That's the difference between US and abroad.[/QUOTE






How long was your training at Gojet?

Are you still there?
 
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