Doug takes a shot at Dave

[Eagleflip]

32 has been asked to tone down the rhetoric, and I'd appreciate it if everyone else does too. No one here ever posted a link to a child porn site, so let us just drop that little tidbit, ok?

Thanks in advance to all!

 

[MD80DRVR]

This is getting ridiculous. If everyone hasn't noticed, this industry is in shambles... NO ONE is immune. He who is on top today may be in bankruptcy tomorrow. Wishing ill will toward one another is getting us nowhere. The fact of the matter is that no one on this board makes the decisions on how our company's are run or how much we get paid (Union or Non-Union) or where we fly. For everyone here to have all this animosity is just silly. Neeleman was just running his gums just like Dave is doing in rebuttal. They're both just trying to rally their troops, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[thruthemurk]

No need to be so defensive. I don't work for United. Just wanted to set the record straight that there captains make more than UAL's at 85 hours.

Simply not true.

If you read the post I was answering perhaps you could see that. I only mentioned profit sharing to show how wildly erratic it is, and as I mentioned, not a good idea when comparing what one makes.

All of your caveats may be true, but do not change the fact that the lowest paid 320 captain at UAL makes more than the highest paid 320 captain at Jetblue at 85 hours - despite all of the rhetoric otherwise.

I am not saying this is good or bad - just that often heard JB refrain is incorrect.

Murk

 

[Eagleflip]

MD80, I think you hit the nail on the head. While I would not prefer to intentially thumb my nose too hard at the competition, a little is unavoidable as CEOs try to differentiate their product.

I remember when Gordon Bethune made the "they're all smoking ragweed" comment about JetBlue. When I said something about it to Dave Barger (who worked for Bethune at Continental) he said something to the effect that Gordon was just trying to keep the Continental folks motivated.

Ain't no use in going too far poking folks in the eye, though. I'd rather just provide a good service at a reasonable price and let the public figure it out for themselves.

 

[GogglesPisano]

It is like watching a once proud hunting dog trying to mount a sack of flour. .

Now that is just plain hilarious!!

 

[Spectre]

Nice to be so confident...your lack of industry experience is showing. A great shortcoming of many of the pure military background guys at JB is that they believe everything they are told. Their 3,4 or 5 years of airline experience has shown them the way everything works- after all its just been airline biz as usual, right? Get back to me in 10 or 15 years when you have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

By the way, Let's do the math.

The most senior 320 Captain at JB working 85 hours makes:
(85*126)+(15*63)*12=$139860 Salary and total.
(0) Retirement

The most junior 320 Captain at UAL working 85 hours makes:
(85*126)*12= $128,520 Salary
($128,520*.15)=$19,278 Retirement (not taxed)
$147798 Total "Quote

The most senior Captain on the A-320 at JetBlue has around 6 years on the property. How many United Captains are there on the A-320 who only have 6 years on the property? You're not comparing apples to apples here. Realistically, I don't think you have anyone who's a Captain at United with less than six years on the property. I think it would take 10-12 years to make Captain on the A320 at United. Even now, the Captain upgrades to the 320 at JetBlue is around 3-4 years. Realistically, if you want to compare total earnings, compare what a 6 year United FO makes against a 6 year Capt at JetBlue who was hired on day one as a Captain!

 

[Green]

I find it terribly dis-heartening to listen to pilots take pleasure in the downfall of legacy carriers. Why would anyone be happy that widebody captain pay has been cut in half? It just puts pressure on LCC carrier salaries. How can we justify making 140k at the LCC airlines when NWA/UAL/Dal can get their 777/747 captains to work for the same amount. It just means we have a pay cut on the horizon. Come on guys/gals we're all in this together. We should be fighting management as a unified front instead of fighting over the scraps.


Anyone catch that recent Wall Street Journal article on Airline Pilot Pay? The AVERAGE air traffic controller salary (160k) is higher than ANY airline pilot outside of SWA makes if you factor in the new DAL and NWA ta's. That is downright depressing. We should be talking SOS type job actions, not trashing each other.

 

[32LT10]

I find it terribly dis-heartening to listen to pilots take pleasure in the downfall of legacy carriers.

Green,

You make a very good point. This is exactly what has happened with the Express carriers versus the majors. Shortly after 9/11 when the company was struggling and giving all the mainline flying the RJ's I heard more than one Express pilot say that "you guys just priced yourself out of the market" and various other versions of it is your own fault that this is happening to you. You can still see this in many of the messages from the crowd that flies for the color coded company.

What is ironic is that once the company was finished rumaging through our pockets they took on the RJ guys. ACA and ARW were the two that got priced out of the market in the UAX arena. All of a sudden they got the same treatment we did. Look at what is happening at NWA. All the Mesaba pilots are upset and crying in their travelpro's that the NWA pilots are giving them the short shrift. None of these guys were crying foul when management was pawning off mainline jobs to them, all because they were the lowest bidder at the time.

 

[JBPA]

The most senior Captain on the A-320 at JetBlue has around 6 years on the property. How many United Captains are there on the A-320 who only have 6 years on the property? You're not comparing apples to apples here.

I disagree. I think he is comparing apples to apples. It doesn't matter that we don't have any 12 year captains. We have a 12-year payscale and that is what was used in his comparison.

Realistically, if you want to compare total earnings, compare what a 6 year United FO makes against a 6 year Capt at JetBlue who was hired on day one as a Captain!

It's funny, no, I mean really sad that a few years ago you wouldn't be able to use this comparison since a year 6 FO made more than a JB CA. A lot more. How 'bout compare a year 6 UA FO with a year 6 JB FO. Oh wait, we don't have any year 6 FO's (we will eventually). Our 156-seat CA pay is low. Bottom line. At least we have good retirement/benefits. Oh wait.....

My point to my ranting is that I personally wouldn't be trying to justify/compare our pay (low) with anybody elses. Especially a year 6 UA FO. Before the legacy managements raped their workforces, they were making way more than us (even most FO's over year 3/4 more than our CA's). Way more. If you think our low pay rates had nothing to do with their current pay scales than you are living in a vacuum. And while I'm not a doom and gloom guy, I don't think that our rates are going to go up anytime soon (we certainly don't have any say in the matter).

The only 'vote' we have on enhancing our compensation package is to 'vote' with our feet.

 

[Big Slick]

He is trying to fire up the troops. This is just what Tony Saprano did the other night. He picked a fight with a younger guy - just to show who was da boss. You got a problem with that?

SWO/FO only watches the Sopranos so he can see Vito Spatafore vacation in New Hampshire.
http://www.hbo.com/sopranos/cast/character/vito_spatafore.shtml