Comm rating questions

C172Heavy

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I have some questions about the commercial rating requirements. I'm at 190 hours and my old instructor said I could sort of kill two birds with one rock and take the comm single, multi, and instrument around the same time. His plan is to start flying the multi around 210 hours and by the time I get to 250 I should be prepared for all three items.

I have some questions about the FAR 61.129(b) section.

Section (b)(3)(i) says that you must have at least 5 hours of instrument training in a multi. Section (b)(3)(iii) and (iv) talk about the short cross country of at least two hours duration in day and night VFR conditions.

First question. Can you take off in day VFR conditions and put on the hood with the instructor present and meet both requirements of (b)(3)(i) and (b)(3)(iii)? I was wondering what they really mean by day VFR conditions. Same question for the night portion.

Also, in section (b)(4) it talks about 10 hours of solo or PIC w/ instructor. How do I start logging the PIC time? Do I get an endorsement from the instructor allowing me to log PIC. And if so, does this endorsement allow me to fly solo in the multi using my private rating?

Thanks for any answers to this confusing mess!

Fly safe!
 

flyboy

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First, about the instrument time. Yes, you must have 5 hours of instrument time in the multi. But that's only part of a 10 hour total requirement. The other 5 may be logged in a flight training device or you may log the complete 10 in the plane.

Second, you can't use the cross countries as time to build your hood time. The two cross countries require the use of pilotage on one, and dead reckoning on the other, or the combination of both. You can't do that under the hood. All of your requirements for the commercial must be done under VFR. Only your approaches may be done IFR. This is where you will pick up most of your hood time. Also, don't forget, you'll need a X-country that is 250 nm from your place of origin that must include landings at three different airports. This must also be VFR.

Third, Your PIC time will be "Acting PIC" which must be endorsed by your instructor as "supervised solo". You may not go and fly the multi by yourself.

Fourth, I really don't know about the 3 birds with one stone. The single commercial involves totally different maneuvers than the multi. For the multi, you only do stalls, steep turns, slow flight, short field landings, vmc demo and emergency procedures. For the single, you do chandelles, lazy eights, eights on pilons, steep turns, stalls, slow flight, short fields, and emergency procedures. Maybe the three birds with one stone he was referring to was getting your multi, commercial, and multi-instrument privileges. at one time. You can do all three in one ride. You can get your single add-on after a couple of hours learning the maneuvers and take another checkride. That's the way I did it. Of course, if you do the single commercial first, you will have to get the multi add-on, but you will also need to get your multi-instrument privileges at the same time.

Now, if you are really balls to the wall about this, I guess you could theoretically get all in one day. If you work on your multi and single commercial stuff all at one time and the DE was feeling good that day, he may let you go up and do all of your multi stuff and then come back, pick up the single, and go right back up to do your single stuff without charging you for 2 rides. But I seriously doubt that will happen.

Avoid biting off more than you can chew. I would suggest getting the multi-commercial out of the way first. Then, the single engine add on will be a piece of cake. Hope this helps. Good luck.
 

bobbysamd

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Commercial-instrument certification

Many schools indeed get people their Private multis so they can count the subsequent time as PIC, and get them their initial Commercial-Instrument certification in the multi. Then, you hop back in a Cadet or 172 and get your Commercial single add-on by demonstrating the commercial maneuvers. You don't need to do it in a complex because you've already demonstrated that in the multi.

You can do Commercial-Multi-Instrument in one checkride; that is the common way of doing it. Pretty grueling flight, which can run 2.0, at least, following a similarly grueling oral. Unless you're really energetic, or a real glutton for punishment, I'd give myself a break before tackling the commercial single. That oral won't be any cakewalk; the examiner is likely to quiz you on the 172 you're using for the flight. All the questions you struggled through for the Commercial oral are fair game again.

Hope that helps. Good luck with your training.
 

C172Heavy

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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like the multi comm is the way to go at first then add the single.

One more question. The FAR's mention 'training' when talking about the complex requirement. (ie, 10 hours of training in an airplane that has a .....)

What exactly does training mean? If I fly a complex aircraft solo does this count as 'training'?

Thanks again
 

Buzo

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Training means you must have an instructor with you giving you training.
 

Vik

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Check the PTS carefully.

I believe you don't have to do commercial maneuvers (lazy 8's, etc) for the multi-comm-ifr, if and only if it is an add-on. If it is initial, I think you will have to do them in the multi.

I also recommend doing the single-comm checkride, then doing the multi-comm-ifr. It will definately be too much for one day unless you have the stamina to do an 8am-6pm checkride.
 

ksu_aviator

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I've done this with students before, so let me tell you what I know.

If you can do the single engine first. This is the cheapest way. Remember when you add on a rating you only have to go back and meet the requirements for that rating that where not required with your initial license.

Single Engine Requirements are: (summarized)

1. Total of 250 hours

2. 100 hours PIC containing 50 hours cross-country flight

3. 20 hours of training containing: 10 hours hood/instrument (5 in airplane), 10 hours of training complex, One cross-country flight of at least 2 hours day VFR conditions, with a destination more than 100nm from original departure (repeat for night)

4. 3 hours in a single-engine airplane in preparation for the practical test within the 60-day period preceding the date of the test.

5. 10 hours of solo flight in a single-engine airplane containing:
one long cross country and 5 hours of night VFR with 10 t/o and ldgs.

When you do your multi you can eliminate 1, 2, and parts of 3.
Leaving you with
1. 10 hours complex multi
2. 5 hours hood/instrument
3. 3 hours test prep
4. 10 hours acting as PIC with the long x-ctry and 5 night vfr with 10 t/o & ldgs.

1,2, and 3 can be combined. So you'll need 20 hours of multi time.

Number 4 will be done with your instructor supervising, and he/she should log it in your book as "Acting As PIC" in the remarks section. You can't actually log PIC in this case, but you have to have some notation in your log book. Hope this helps.

PS...some examiners will let you combine 1 and 4 to some extent if you meet the currency req. (3 t/o & ldg) but I wouldn't count on that.

Also if you do the multi first there is no need to do the single engine maneuvers.
 

Mickey

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Actually, once you get your single commercial there are no specific requirements for the multi outside of the three hours prep for the checkride. Check out 61.63(c)(4).
gOOD LUCK.
 

bobbysamd

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Single v. Multi add-ons

The PTS has a table of the areas of operations you must complete to get the certificate. Review the columns for single v. multi.

Of course, by definition, as a Commercial pilot you will have received the complex signoff, so that topic will have been covered. Apparently you have to still check out in an airplane with an engine of more than 200 hp to get your high-performance signoff. Maybe the way to do it is to get both signoffs in an Arrow or something like that. I did that, but that was in the days when "high-performance" airplane was either an airplane with more than 200 hp or an airplane with retractable gear, controllable prop and flaps.

I don't think you have to do the commercial maneuvers, i.e., lazy eights and chandelles, in the multi for initial commercial certification. You only have to do steep turns. Of course, you still have to demonstrate all the maneuvers under Flight at Critically Slow Airspeeds, i.e. stalls and MCAS (slow flight).

I agree that it is cheaper to earn initial certification in the single(s). I did that. But I like the idea of earning it in a multi because you hit the ground running for building multi time and you really become comfortable flying the airplane.

Hope that helps a little more.
 
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chperplt

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You DO NOT have to do commercial maneuvers for the multi comm checkride, even if it is your initial checkride. You'll do them for the SE add on.
 

Pilotadjuster

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multi reqs

Just got through going through Pt 61 requirements in excruciating detail over the last month or so. From what I have read, if you get your multi commercial first, you WILL have to perform the commercial maneuvers - Chandelles, Lazy 8s, etc. My instructor had one student who did this a few years ago and the examiner made him "follow along" on the Pylon 8s, as he didn't feel comfortable doing those with a new ME pilot... not sure how kosher that was, but in any case, the regs read that you have to perform the same maneuvers if the ME is your INITIAL comm ride. Also--if ME is your first comm ride, you would have to do all of the commercial cross country requirements in a multi, which is pretty costly. Much less expensive and sounds a bit easier to do as a single add-on rating. For the add-on there are no requirements outside of the 3 hours prep time before the test. Of course, you'll need a bit more than that before anyone would sign you off for a practical.
 

flyboy

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Guys,

You absolutely DO NOT have to do lazy eights, eights on, etc. for the initial or add on multi commercial. READ the PTS for the multi-commercial. I just took this checkride. You only do steepturns, slowflight, stalls, vmc, short field landing, x-country w/ diverison. It is a piece of cake checkride. At no point in any rating will you have to do lazy eights, eights on, etc. in a multi. It's only for the single, whether it's add on or initial. I don't currently have a single commercial.
 

Pilotadjuster

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multi reqs

Can't argue with actual experience - thanks for the info!
 

bobbysamd

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You still have to do the drag demo, don't you? I can't remember the exact name of that AO, but it's the one where you set zero thrust on the non-critical engine and put in incremenents of flap and gear, etc., and finally have zero sideslip to observe the rate of decent.
 

Timebuilder

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I used a drag demo during training, but I don't believe it is in the PTS. I don't have the books right here to check, though, and I could be wrong.

Since the Single commercial has the more interesting flying, and since the maneuvers may take longer to learn, go there first. You already have you single instrument, right? Get the instructor to sign you off on the complex aircraft, and go practice. Every couple of flights, fly with the instructor to make sure you are doing things right, and not practicing bad habits. This will save you money. Meet the other requirements and go take the single commercial. Now, do the multi/comm/inst as an add-on. It's just like a multi private, with commercial steep turns, and the things mentioned above. A couple of approaches in the multi, a single engine multi aproach, and you've gone from single instrument to multi instrument.

Other schools do it differently, FSI being one of them. I think the way I described allows you to save on instruction charges with the complex signoff, allowing you to lower your cost of practice. You can't do that in the twin.

I agree that most DE's won't do the single and multi rides the same day. There's too much possibilty of brain lockup. :)
 

Pilotadjuster

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suggestion

Suggestion also--I know I haven't worried about getting my multi yet because its hard enough to find a job flying commercial single with low time, let alone multi. Put it off because of $ of course and because I'd want the multi time to be "fresh" when I look for a job.

If you are going to get your CFI as well, I'd suggest working on right seat stuff and doing your flight requirements for the CFI while building those 60 hours to 250 total (flight requirements regarding "log ground and flight training" - depending upon the FSDO, they want that very specifically logged, as far as instructional training goes). Chances are very good you won't need 60 hours to become proficient in commercial maneuvers. If you can talk through the instruction of commercial maneuvers, actually performing them on your checkride will be a piece of cake!

Id echo what Timebuilder said about the manuevers being challenging as well as fun to practice....

Good Luck!
 

Eagle

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"if you get your multi commercial first, you WILL have to perform the commercial maneuvers - Chandelles, Lazy 8s, etc.

I Also wanted to chime in, you will NOT do the 8's and chandels etc in a multi.

I have my multi comml/inst and do NOT have my single eng comml.
 

Timebuilder

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Back when I was working on my instrument rating, I asked about doing Chandelles in a twin. I wish I'd had a camera to capture the look on the guy's face.

No, there are no "commercial maneuvers" for multi like the single commercial requires.

Now Bob Hoover can probably do ALL of them.....

..or at least he used to...
 

bobbysamd

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Initial CFI

Although initial Commercial certification in the single is cheaper, I like the idea of getting your initial Commercial in the multi, and then earning your initial CFI (MEI) and II in that airplane. Good way to really get a lot of bang for your multi buck. Isn't that what All-ATPs does?

Initial CFI is tough, any way you do it, because you have to know the FOI cold. After that, MEI shouldn't be that bad because you will be fresh on the maneuvers and fresh on the systems. Chances are, you will have to draw the multi systems on your Commercial ride. You will have to do the same for your MEI. You will also be fresh on instruments, so doing the II makes sense. You probably can knock off all three on the same practical. Then, later, find a 172 and do your CFI-A. The examiner should not demand that you use a complex/high-performance single because you already demonstrated that on your CFI-MEI ride.

Interesting about no more drag demo requirement. If I went back to instructing, I would probably at least introduce it to my students. It's a good aspect of their multi education. Same reasoning for eights-around for the Commercial single.

Good discussion.
 
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Eagle

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All ATP will not give you a multi comm unless you have your single comm already.

atleast not here in NJ
 
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