Combining the seniority lists

FlyDeltasJets

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SDD,

Even if the PID was granted, even if the rjdc wins, even if every Delta pilot was for onelist, I don't believe it will ever occur. If you disagree, please give me a realistic strategy to convince mgt to combine the lists, keeping in mind the following points:

1. There is nothing in either of our contracts which comples mgt to combine the lists. We have no legal authority.

2. There is a huge cost advantage in keeping the lists seperate. Management has publically stated that they will never merge the lists. There are way too many cost issues involved, including f/a's, rampers, csa's, retirement funding, etc.

3. Mgt has already accepted an 89 day strike to maintain the current cost structure.

4. The current trend is to spin off regionals rather than combining the lists. We have no way to prevent management from doing this, even if we put massive pressure on them to combine the lists.

5. We (DALPA) could not possibly get released to strike for at least 4 or 5 years.

6. Our contracts are staggered, so we would not be released at the same time.

7. The idea is impossible without the support of the Delta pilots.

8. The rjdc has virtually eliminated any chance of that support being gained.

9. The majority of concessions would have to come from the mainline contract.

10. See number 8.

11. The support that the rjdc hasn't been able to kill is further strained by the Delta pilot's fear of losing seniority.

12. No staple has been asked for, lending credence to the Delta pilot's fear of losing seniority.


There are many other factors working against onelist, but I will stop here!

It is easy to say that onelist should occur. It is easy to file a lawsuit. It is harder to demonstrat that it "could" occur, and harder still to offer a realistic strategy that would be successful.

You have eloquently stated over and over again the need for onelist. Let's assume that we agree. Now please speculate how we could achieve it. Please use specifics.

I don't think that we can achieve it. I would like for you to change my mind.

Anyonce can join in. Surplus, your ideas are always valuable.

No soundbites. I've heard them all. I need realistic proposals.

Thanks.
 

ifly4food

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Moderator's note...

FDJ asked me to make this a new topic because he felt it warranted more discussion. I agree.
It was originally under the "Freedom Airlines/Scope" thread.
If4f
 

rjcap

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Flydeltajets,

I agree with you. There is no real reason to think that the lists would ever be combined - stapled of whatever. It would put far too much power in the hands of the pilots.

Having said that its time we accept that we are competitors who are free to compete against each other in a free market.
 

FlyDeltasJets

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Rj,

We are competing. We tried to get scope. We succeeded. You tried to get meaningful scope. You failed.

The free market is never entirely free. From a pilot's point of view, I don't think you would like it too much if it was.
 

Old Crow

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The Disadvantages of not having a onelist situation is multiple managment groups, the lack of the ability to maximize the use of company assets, and the inability to fly the right aircraft in the right market.

No need to comment further cause Big D will never convince the Delta mainline pilots that it would work to their advantage.
 

rjcap

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Flydeltajets,


We are competing. We tried to get scope. We succeeded. You tried to get meaningful scope. You failed.
You have lost me there?

Mainline is being furloughed.

We are taking delivery of 50 and 70 seat RJ's and increasing our route structure.

I'm not quite sure where I failed here?


Good luck to you
 

TWA Dude

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I certainly agree that onelist won't come to pass until it's in management's best interest, but management just may have other tricks up its sleeve. They want the cheapest labor they can find, which means the "small jet" carriers. Scope gets in the way so you can bet they'll try to work around it. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see a revision of the Railway Labor Act. In the long run management always has the upper hand so the best we can do is to counter them with a unified front. Call me a cynic but I can't envision pilots forming a unified front.

I am sympathetic to the RJDC to the extent that there's no doubt that ALPA favors mainline pilot groups over regionals, and even a lawsuit won't change that. Management would love to grow the regionals and shrink the majors and of course many small-jet pilots love that idea. We all want our present airline to be the best for us. Thus there'll always be divisions between the carriers regardless of ALPA.

Sorry for rambling. With every passing year the "facts on the ground" change in this industry and management has the momentum.
 

FlyDeltasJets

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rjcap said:
Flydeltajets,




You have lost me there?

Mainline is being furloughed.

We are taking delivery of 50 and 70 seat RJ's and increasing our route structure.

I'm not quite sure where I failed here?


Good luck to you
I agree with you rj. You guys are winning right now. All I stated is that you failed to get meaningful scope. We did get it, though it is being ignored.

My post was in reponse to your request that we should accept that we are competitors. I agree with that assesment, but think it is direct contrast to the actions of the rjdc who is attempting to abrogate our contract.

I guess that I was not too clear. I apologize. I shouldn't have gotten into it. I would love it if this thread continues with my original intent, garnering ideas for onelist.
 

skydiverdriver

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Again, the rjdc lawsuit is misrepresented, and misunderstood. It's not just about onelist, it's about treating us the same, as per their own bylaws. That wouldn't be solved with onelist, as there is much more to it.

But, to answer your question, I believe since we kindly asked your MEC to talk about a onelist proposal, and they refused, you should petition your MEC to come to us with a proposal. This seems to make the most sense, because you could draw up a contract, word it any way you want, and submit it to the other involved parties. I dont' think our MEC is able to do this, since they allready did and were turned down.

I totally agree that even if the rjdc gets everything they want, it will NOT, and I repeat, not result in a merger. HOwever, by their bylaws, ALPA is required to do everything in their power to try to get one accomplished. NOw, read that again, they cannot affect a merger, but they are required to try. This is the essense of what the rjdc is suing for. Everyone knows that ALPA cannot make it happen, but their own bylaws require them to TRY. I'm not sure why this keeps getting muddied in the discussion.

If you have a better suggestion, I would be glad to entertain it. HOwever, since it was YOUR side that refused to follow the established procedure, I feel it is your side's obligation to make the first move. Of course, this would put you in control, and isn't that what you want anyway? What do you think?
 

skydiverdriver

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FDJ, PS,
It's kinda funny that you should ask this, because I have been asking this question all along. I keep hearing people who say we shouldn't have started a lawsuit, and I ask, then what should we do instead? If ALPA wouldn't follow their own bylaws, and Delta's MEC refused to even talk, what then? It seems to me like the only reason anyone is listening to us at all, or even talking about this is because a few brave Comair pilots decided they weren't going to take it any longer. Otherwise, you would not even be talking to us about this.
 

skydiverdriver

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I also like the part you say about us getting no support from Delta pilots because of the rjdc. Well, we didn't get any before, and now, at least your talking about it. I think the party at fault would be the first one to do something improper, which was you guys. We came to you and asked to TALK, and were told that we should go work on a flowthrough. I think it is YOU guys who should take the blame for making us go to court to seek our redress. You see, we wouldn't have had to file a lawsuit if YOUR guys would have agreed to speak to us.
 

FlyDeltasJets

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Old Crow said:
The Disadvantages of not having a onelist situation is multiple managment groups, the lack of the ability to maximize the use of company assets, and the inability to fly the right aircraft in the right market.

No need to comment further cause Big D will never convince the Delta mainline pilots that it would work to their advantage.
Crow,

With all due respect, I think you are missing the point. It is not the mainline pilots who need to be convinced. It is management, who has stated on numerous occasions that they will never merge the lists. The cost savings you mentioned are more than cancelled out by the added expenses from increased salaries, retirement, etc.

The point of this thread is how we can convince management, and the Delta pilots, that onelist can benefit both.

Any ideas would be appreciated. As of yet, I have heard none.
 

FlyDeltasJets

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SDD,

All of your points have been rehashed over and over. I think the rjdc is at fault. You do not. I think you should come to us. You think we should come to you.

It is all academic, and not at all relevant to this discussion.


Let's assume we all agree it is a good idea.


How do we achieve it? Let's hear some concrete ideas.
 

skydiverdriver

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FDJ,
Do you see my questions? I tried to answer yours, so, what do you think?
 

skydiverdriver

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Well, I think we should talk about it first, to set some strategies. But, since your guys refused to talk about it, perhaps they should come to us. Why do you think they won't? Anyway, they are going to talk on the 2nd of April. Call the Comair VARS, and look at my post on Delta, Comair and ASA MEC's to meet for more info.
 

rjcap

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Flydeltajets

I agree with you rj. You guys are winning right now. All I stated is that you failed to get meaningful scope. We did get it, though it is being ignored.
My post was in reponse to your request that we should accept that we are competitors. I agree with that assesment, but think it is direct contrast to the actions of the rjdc who is attempting to abrogate our contract
I guess that I was not too clear. I apologize. I shouldn't have gotten into it. I would love it if this thread continues with my original intent, garnering ideas for onelist.
No sweat.

This whole thing has become quite frustrating. Unfortunately the pilots among mainline and ComAsa are becoming divided when they need to focus the anger at the source - the CEO.

Good luck
 

Draginass

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The regional guys aren't "winning" anything. They may be getting some more jets and routes in the short term, but for the same low compensation and weak scope . . . . and soon as management feels they're getting too upity . . . . . then bring on the outsourcers. Why should they pay an RJ captain $80k a year when they can get somebody to do it for $45k? Retirement plan? What's that?
 
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skydiverdriver

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FDJ,
Honestly, I don't know the answer to your question, and that's why I've been asking it for so long. Personally, I think if we sat down with our respective MEC"s and came up with a onelist plan, that Delta would go for it. It's just my own opinion, and even if I'm wrong, that would be a useful first step.

We tried to talk, and were turned down. We tried to do the PID, and were turned down. Now we are in litigation, our last resort, because our rights were being ignored. I think the rj pilots are the injured party here, and since we are in litigation, any private contact between the parties involved would probably be incorrect. However, if your MEC went to ALPA and proposed a settlement, I'm sure that would be considered by all the parties.

I'm not a lawyer, or a party to the rjdc. I'm just a line pilot who believes in their cause. I've been asking this same question for so long, and now, someone else is finally tackling it. People keep telling me that a lawsuit was a bad idea, and we should drop it, but nobody has ever given me an alternative idea. I suppose the only alternative is to do nothing, which I think wouldn't help.

So, since it was Delta and ALPA that said no when we wanted to talk, they should be the ones to make the first move. However, I think they are. Comair's current VARS message says that they will be meeting on the 2nd of April. It doesn't say what the meeting is about, but I'm guessing this issue will be discussed. So, perhaps it's allready being taken care of. I hope it works out for the best for everyone involved, I really do.
 

rjcap

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Draginass

The regional guys aren't "winning" anything. They may be getting some more jets and routes in the short term, but for the same low compensation and weak scope
I agree. I wouldn't phrase it as winning but merely a momentary shift dictated by cost and opportunity as viewed by management.

This will continue till the cost benefits of RJ's vs mainline reverse or become irrelevent.

Keep in mind gentlemen, while we all want greater benefits and compensation/retirement, the best job is the one you have at the present moment that is paying your mortgage and expenses. The prospects of mainline compensation and workrules are very enticing but improving your present situation ( meant to read new contract) is definitely more relevent in todays airline industry enviornment.

Just another worthless 2 cents worth.
 

publisher

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Review

Let's go over this once more:

1. . There will be the elimination of most tubo props and regionals will consist of almost entirely regional jets.

2... The major carriers will make every effort to spin off their regional carrier positions in order to raise cash and profits over the next year and a half. See Northwest and Continental for starters.

3. Delta will likely do the same.

4....Nothing that might impair that negatively will be accepted. See Comair strike history. One list of any kind across companies they may not own tomorrow is not even a consideration.

5. Delta has made it clear through ComAir and taking their current stance how important it is that regionals stay separate and apart, not more together.

6. It is likely that Delta will face, along with the other majors, severe competition from other carriers who will be separate carriers, more from people like Southwest and the other niche players, and more from overseas.

7... Against the above senario, you do not have, nor is it likely to come, any unity among pilot groups and union leadership.

8.. Scope is not going to work either for the exact same reasons.

9.. As we have discussed before, there are issues that in labor negotiation that are not negotiable, deal breakers, if you will. Leave the table stuff. This is one of those type issues.

10... Why do you think that union leadership really wants to avoid this like the plague. ALPA thought the Comair deal was nothing but a pain in their rears that they were stuck with. This would be 10 times worse.
 
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